Lack of interest in 40 SW yet 10MM is getting popular??

[Dogmann]

How do you figger that????........Same cartridge...Just different lengths.......Your excuse is one I haven't heard before......Been loading 40 since 1989 when it came out

It' will
Come back

 

[Law-dog]

Apparently nobody read my post #66 or looked at the new reloading tables with NEW powders or read the posts showing the exact power level of the Buffalo Bore 40 SW Plus P on the Buffalo Bore site, specific to barrel length.

The 9mm is never going to be close to a premium 40 and it can never have the momentum required for big bears and such. Just check any of the 9mm ballistics with the 147 and 158 grain hard cast loads. They can never get close.

New powders changed the 40 SW into an equal of the 357 when using the same barrel lengths. People are comparing advertising data which uses long test barrels, proper comparison means the same barrel length. Otherwise it is apples and orange, just bogus comments.

Check out the Hodgen site or the newest published reloading manual, which is the Nosler manual, first printed in 2022.

Of course I chrono them so I know they are correct. If you do not chrono them, then you really do know, right?

 

[Hiwood]

If the FBI dropped the 9MM and went to the 22lr, the Military and half the police agencies in America would follow them.

You are exactly right! I doubt the FBI decision to drop the .40cal was due to improved 9mm ballistics as much as it was the cost of ammo driven by the bureaucrats & bean counters at FBI headquarters. The 40 is an excellent service round but law enforcement executives are like sheep that follow the lead of the FBI

 

[chanthemann]

How do you figger that????........Same cartridge...Just different lengths.......Your excuse is one I haven't heard before......Been loading 40 since 1989 when it came out

Yes, and they even use the same dies

 

[ViperVette]

Pic of a .Special, 44 mag and a .500.

I'd never get rid of my 629's, even though I really like my S&W 460 Magnum

Here's a picture of the 44 mag and the 460 mag side by side

View attachment 786572

I agree. Here's a .500 mag with a .44 Special and a .44 Mag also. Love them all but that .500 is something else

 

[Neumann]

Unless you buy premium 10mm you're getting 40S&W ballistics. Do some research. 10mm is only worthwhile if you buy buffalo bore or some other "hot" loads. Most factory loads are very mild. Now, if you reload you can definitely see and feel the difference.

9mm, .40SW and ,45 ACP deliver about 450 ft-lbs, whereas 10mm delivers 600-650 ft-lbs. Buffalo Bore about 700.

 

[Hiwood]

I know this is a 40 vs 10MM thread. However I have noted frequent references to the "Miami shootout". I attended the FBI Academy shortly after that event as a Chicago Police Captain. My focus was the HRT and SWAT operations. As one might imagine the Miami event was much discussed and evaluated.
My .02 worth:
It was not lack of local participation that impacted the event so much as the lack of any FBI doctrine, or a failure of what there was in conducting a felony car stop. The fight was initiated with such a stop. One of the initial problems was that agents took guns out of holsters and put them on the car seats beside them so as to be readily to hand. The car stop was initiated with a kinetic stop, i.e.; a more or less controlled collision between the FBI and the suspect vehicles. This involved the suspect vehicle and two FBI vehicles. During the crashes the FBI weapons were dislodged from the car seats and were thrown around the vehicle(s). That meant that the first agents to engage the suspects were using back up weapons. One suspect had an fully auto Mini 14, absolutely deadly at handgun ranges. Further he had trained with that weapon using the military method of using short controlled bursts, again absolutely deadly at the range involved. That suspect sustained an "nonsurvivable wound" from the get go from an FBI 9MM round. However it was a neck wound and not a "stopping" shot. Ben Grogan was an absolutely superior marksman (member of the FBI local SWAT). However his glasses had been dislodged in the vehicle impacts. Thus Dove and Grogan were under a severe disadvantage from the very start of the shooting.
It is prominently stated that the cause of the FBI losses were the result of the 9MM failure. That is simply not true. The proximate cause was the initiation of the felony car stop in an ineffective manner, the agents placing their weapons on the car seats, and loss of eyeglasses by the best shooter the FBI had on the scene.
These things probably would not have happened if the situation had been initiated by local cops. Note the "probably". Most street cops do not draw weapons till they are out of the vehicle, or the vehicle is stopped and they intend to emerge ready to shoot. This is basic training because we know that shooting from a moving vehicle is almost never effective, hence the manner of handling weapons in a vehicle.
This is not a shot at the FBI, they were simply not used to doing kinetic actions with a vehicle. Most rookie state troopers could have performed the kinetic stop easily, they are trained that way. Most other local cops could have done the same. They spend a lot of time using vehicles for other than transportation. Perhaps FBI agents of the 1930s would have fared better, they were crashing into bad guys almost every day.
I would like to point out that this particuar gunfight was terminated by a badly wounded FBI agent using a 3" S&W M13 firing .38 special +p SWCHP, and a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot. It was not a failure of a 9MM round, it was a failure induced by circumstances that prevailed through a chain of events that were not necessarily predictable, the removal of any one of which would have altered the outcome dramatically-kind of like most major historical events-the Titanic comes to mind.
And the FBI uses what round today? Essentailly the same round that was called a failure after the shootout. Maybe if all the agents had been using the .38 special +P SWCHP things might have been different?

Retired police firearms instructor and SWAT guy here. You have accurately described the event and I agree with your conclusions. After this tragic firefight the FBI produced a training documentary which included interviews with the surviving agents and a detailed description of the events. In watching this video what struck me was the fact the FBI never once acknowledged any mistakes or shortcomings on their part regarding tactics or equipment. These agents knew in advance they were dealing with heavily armed suspects with a history of shooting & homicide. Had the local street cops been involved I suspect they would have come prepared with long guns, body armor and the necessary manpower. Of course, the FBI wouldn't want to involve them because they don't want to share the headlines with the local agencies.

 

[skwchock]

Many people do not live in areas where bears, etc. will attack. The 2 legged predators abound in most areas (cities, towns). Carry what you are comfortable and PROFICIENT. It could be that 22lr, 38 Spec/9mm or the more powerful types. That is personal choice. Your life depends upon your skill -- and accuracy.

 

[Beau254]

Unless you buy premium 10mm you're getting 40S&W ballistics. Do some research. 10mm is only worthwhile if you buy buffalo bore or some other "hot" loads. Most factory loads are very mild. Now, if you reload you can definitely see and feel the difference.

Not even dude… lol. Standard off the shelf loads are over 300fps faster & also the same for 300+ higher muzzle energy. The heavy loads step up from there..

 

[Beau254]

With the rise of terminal ballistics & bullet technology there really isn't enough difference in 9mm & .40 S&W.
Thats why the Anemic .40- Slow & Weak hasn't caught on as well. The only real advantage for .40S&W would be running 180 gr . But then you have ~ 35-40% more recoil than 9mm. In a carry situation especially with micro sized pistols that equates to less reaction time between shots getting back on target. You can get more rounds on target quicker with a 9mm.
If you're going to step up in auto caliber, 10mm decimates all. Plus like many say, it can be loaded up to endless possibilities. Especially with pistol hunting. Which I enjoy. One of the best semi-auto hunting cartridges around. Just ask uncle Ted or Razor Dobbs all about that. It's been proven around the World.

Not to mention added round capacity. They don't call the 10mm the "Best MM" for nothing..

 

[b737lvr]

40SW is a compromise of 10MM and it's never coming back. The 9MM and 10MM are perfect compliments to each other. Anyone still using 40SW who hasn't moved up to 10MM has soft hands.

 

[Old18C]

I discarded S&W .40 as soon as I was allowed by the department I worked for. I found it very inaccurate in our department-issued pistol, so I switched barrels to .357 Sig as soon as I was allowed. I went to 10mm when the last department I worked for allowed the caliber. Shooting steel matches, its performance was better at greater distances. Living in Alaska most of the year made the 10mm and .44 Mag a choice for a reason.


Here is my "HOLSTER" for my M1A. The green chair bag from Van Comp Shotguns.

 

[Hawg Rider]

I have plenty of revolvers and pistols in assorted calibers, but a couple of years ago I decided on getting a S&W M&P 10mm 2.0 (4.6" bbl). I wanted a high capacity pistol with more rounds than a .45 ACP and more punch than a 9mm. I also wanted to be able to mount a weapon light and RDO. I owned a .40 Glock 23 back in the day (with high cap mags when they were still banned), but never really liked it. To this day I'm not a Glock fan. However, I really like my M&P 10mm and have never had any issues with it. It has become my nightstand pistol, and often travels with me when driving. There are lots of ammo choices these days and they're usually in stock. Lately I've been shooting Federal 180 gr. at the range, and for home defense: loading my magazines with Black Hills Honey Badger 115 gr. Wow- hot, fast, and accurate!