Lead, Plated, Jacketed velocities.

[mckenney99]

I'm trying to work up a decent factory equivalent 158gr 38 spl practice load for an upcoming snubby revolver class. I prefer to use a plated bullet for this class, due to the number of rounds fired during the day and I don't want to have to deal with lead fouling afterwards. I wanted to use the X-treme Bullets 158gr PFP and Winchester Sm. Pistol Primers and W231 since I have plenty of both already in stock.

I put my new Garmin Xero (maybe the greatest thing since sliced bread) to work Monday to test a factory load, American Eagle 158gr LRN in 5 different Snubbies.
The American Eagle 158gr LRN from a 2 3/4 inch Ruger Security Six (the longest of the 5 guns tested) only achieved 716fps/avg (the highest of all 5 tested). I cannot locate any 158gr jacketed practice type loads locally to chronograph so I am stuck working with the data I have.

By comparison, my assembled handload of the X-treme 158gr PFP over 4.0gr of W231 with a WSP primer only achieved 588fps/avg.
I am obviously going to have to bump up the W231 charge but the manuals are all over the place, with maximum charges anywhere between 3.8gr for lead, up to 4.9gr. for jacketed bullets.

Given the same variables, (firearm, case, powder charge, primer, seating depth, crimp) Would you expect a lead bullet to run a little faster than a plated bullet and a jacketed bullet to be the slowest?
Is anyone using a 158gr plated bullet with W231 at greater than 4.0grains without any issues?

 

[rockquarry]

I'm trying to work up a decent factory equivalent 158gr 38 spl practice load for an upcoming snubby revolver class. I prefer to use a plated bullet for this class, due to the number of rounds fired during the day and I don't want to have to deal with lead fouling afterwards. I wanted to use the X-treme Bullets 158gr PFP and Winchester Sm. Pistol Primers and W231 since I have plenty of both already in stock.

I put my new Garmin Xero (maybe the greatest thing since sliced bread) to work Monday to test a factory load, American Eagle 158gr LRN in 5 different Snubbies.
The American Eagle 158gr LRN from a 2 3/4 inch Ruger Security Six (the longest of the 5 guns tested) only achieved 716fps/avg (the highest of all 5 tested). I cannot locate any 158gr jacketed practice type loads locally to chronograph so I am stuck working with the data I have.

By comparison, my assembled handload of the X-treme 158gr PFP over 4.0gr of W231 with a WSP primer only achieved 588fps/avg.
I am obviously going to have to bump up the W231 charge but the manuals are all over the place, with maximum charges anywhere between 3.8gr for lead, up to 4.9gr. for jacketed bullets.

Given the same variables, (firearm, case, powder charge, primer, seating depth, crimp) Would you expect a lead bullet to run a little faster than a plated bullet and a jacketed bullet to be the slowest?
Is anyone using a 158gr plated bullet with W231 at greater than 4.0grains without any issues?

A lead bullet will likely have a somewhat higher velocity than a plated bullet, but you're still dealing with lots of variable factors. Jacketed bullets will be the slowest. I'd choose lead over plated simply because of generally better accuracy. if your bullet fit is good and is of the right alloy for your load, there will be no leading.

Cast will often be more accurate than jacketed as well. Use the Lyman manual as a guide for powder charges fro 231. Adjust for such factors as seating depth, bearing surface, and bullet design.

Using a Hensley & Gibbs #51 design cast SWC of 158 grs., I get the following velocities with the listed powder charges of 231 in a 2" M60 S&W:

4 grs. 231 = 699 fps
4.3 grs. 231 = 729 (746 in 2" Colt Cobra)

I don't necessarily recommend these loads unless you're using the exact same bullet I used. If you get much over 750 -775 fps in a snubnose gun with a 158 grain cast SWC, you'll very likely be getting into +P pressures.

Is there a reason you need higher velocities? I'd go with what's accurate and shoots to point of aim. Conversely, I wouldn't go with a load that has velocities under about 675 fps.

 

[DWalt]

What you need to do is develop a load which shoots to, or close to, point of aim. I would suggest using a 158 grain SWC Lead bullet, then experiment with various loads to find one that shoots where you point and groups well, at about 15 yards/50 feet for a snubby, assuming it has fixed sights. Forget the MV for the time being as that is secondary. Don't worry about lead fouling.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

As an answer to the specific question of loading more than 4.0 gr WIN231 with a plated 158gr bullet without any issues, my answer is definitely yes...

The comment about your reloads shooting to point of aim is right on point: since you are talking about a Ruger Security Six you have a very sturdy firearm for your load development. You're not really anywhere close to +P territory with 4.0gr: find that point of aim=point of impact "sweet spot" and take it from there...

Good Luck & Cheers!

 

[Nevada Ed]

You have a chrony;

just get that plated 158 bullet up to 755fps and see what happens.

You might find a accurate load below or higher that will work for you
but 800 fps might be where your 2" barrel will level off in POA accuracy.

There are other slower powders that might work better for you.
Have fun.

 

[DWalt]

Generally, slower bullets will print higher on the target than faster bullets of the same weight.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Would you expect a lead bullet to run a little faster than a plated bullet and a jacketed bullet to be the slowest?

From an article some years back.

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.

 

[rwsmith]

You can use....

... up to 4.5 grains of Unique to get a little more top end. Or 5.5 grains of Acc #5. I'm afraid W231/H38 won't quite make the grade in this application.

I have an old Sierra book (read "hunting loads") that had really hot stuff, more than other listed data, but there is no lead bullet data. I experimented with a load greater than the 6 gr. of Unique that most sources read in a 125gr JHP. I didn't get anywhere near the 7 grain max they quoted. I was using my snub model 10 so I felt ok with the 'experiment'.

X-Tremes are very good, I've shot some of them, heavy for caliber (9mm 165 gr.) using Unique and Acc #7. But Acc #7 data is hard to find in 38 spec, 158 gr Lead.

You MIGHT want to try coated bullets IF you have to eke a little more velocity out of them. They load and shoot like plain cast lead, but they are very clean to use. I like the Missouri Bullets as my go to and Bayou as my 2nd choice.

 

[taz666]

I'd think the OP would need to use a faster burning powder in his shorty.
Coated bullets are a good option as well.

 

[TXBryan]

All other things being similar I rather consistently get numerically higher velocities from powder coated projectiles compared to jacketed, plated, or lubed lead. I've done a few side by side comparisons and occasionally the difference is larger than one might expect in favor of powder coated if velocity is what you're after. This is particularly true with .32 SW Long in my experience.

Bryan

 

[WR Moore]

I only use 231 in .45 ACP, mostly Unique in .38/ 9mm. The Hornady manual lists a max of 4.4 gr of 231 for their 158 gr swaged lead bullet. Using Unique, 4.8 gr gets me slightly over 750 f/s in a 2 inch gun with either lead or plated bullets.

You'll usually see jacketed bullet loads with higher powder charges due to the softer lead bullets leading above the lower load level. You won't have that issue with plated bullets.

 

[gwpercle]

The best loads I can find are in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual
38 Special: w/ RCBS design moulds
-
158 gr. cast RN (#38-158-RN)- 4.2 grs. W231 @ 848 fps
158 gr. cast SWC (#38-158-SWC) - 4.2 grs. W231 @ 810 fps

But ... here is the Kicker ...Test Barrel ... 6" long - model 14 S&W !!!
So take those velocities with a big grain of salt .

I would work up slowly to RCBS's 4.2 grain loading ... looking for the "signs" ... with that plated 158 gr. PFP bullet and W231 , since you have them on hand and published data is available for loads .
RCBS shows a starting load of 3.7 grs. W231 @ about 750 fps for both cast bullets .

Load Safe,
Gary

 

[Nevada Ed]

Lyman #358311 160 LRN has w231 at 5.2grs @ 18.500 CUP.

A 158 XTP out of my M49 2" with 4.9 grs of w231 did 803 fps.
Unique powder with a 98% load was 50 fps faster.

In my 3.5" 9mm pistol a full load of w231 & Unique with a
Coated 115gr bullet set at 1.115" OAL, both were accurate and at POA
but the Unique powder still had more fps.

Every gun is different, good luck, with your loads.

 

[rwsmith]

I suppose what I was saying was.....

...I'm sure that you can use more than 4 grains of W231, especially in a Ruger and also a snubby. The problem is that I just don't know what that amount is. I MIGHT add .2 grains and see what velocity increase I got.

My old Sierra book (1971 edition) says that you can use 6.4 gr. of Unique with a JACKETED 158 gr. bullet. That is JACKETED, not a cast lead bullet so the correlation doesn't match, but that gives you an idea.

 

[DWalt]

From an article some years back.

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.

I have seen a similar graph for 9mm. It is fairly obvious that plain cast lead bullets are the best choice for minimum bore friction.

 

[rwsmith]

It's really surprising....

From an article some years back.

.



.

....that plated bullets are slower than jacketed. The coefficient of friction should be about the same, but I would think the thinner jacket would allow easier engagement with the grooves. But perhaps plated bullets being mostly hard cast give a little more resistance. I THINK that the lead in jacketed bullets is usually softer. I find it aggravating that many powder companies only show data for SWAGED lead loads rather than hard cast. Thank goodness for Lyman. But they all cater to their own interests.

 

[alwslate]

I prefer shooting cast bullets. The highest charge of 231 I have seen listed in any manual is a +P load of 5.4 grs with a 158 gr jacketed bullet. The top load I have used is 5.3 grs with a 158 gr cast SWC that chronographed 1,018 fps out of my 4" S&W model 10-5. +P max pressure is only 20,000 psi. You're not going to blow up any modern revolver by daring to load above 4.0 grs of 231 with any 158 gr bullet.

 

[Spur]

Subed to see where this goes, am interested in what you come up with.

I teach some women's self defense classes and usually use .38 out of either an SP101 (3" barrel) or a Speed Six (2.5" barrel).

I've gone through 2K of 158g lead RNFP (Missouri Cowboy #15) and another 2K of the same thing HiTek coated....all over 4.0g of HP38.

Am currently going through 1K of 158g plated FP over 4.0g of HP38 and 1K of 125g plated FP over 4.4g of HP38. Can't remember the brand but they were from a mixed lot from American Reloading I picked up sometime last year.

Accuracy at 10 yard is better than a student can usually shoot and recoil is not too light nor too heavy. Haven't had any problems with leading in the cast but really like the HiTek coated. I've never run these through a chronograph but interesting that yours are as slow as you are seeing. I've got an old style chronograph but can't set it up at the in door range I currently use....need to get one of those Garmin Xero's but hate that price tag.

Once someone has gone through the learning curve I'll switch to a duplicate of the FBI +P load that was posted here by ArchAngelCD back in the day (kudo's to him again), which is 7.0g of HS-6 over 158g LSWC/HP using a CCI magnum primer......he stated that was running at about 925 fps if I remember correctly....but that load uses more HS-6 that is currently published in any manual so you should work up to it and are assuming any risk by using it.

I really like this load though, I've gone through at least 1K.....it's inexpensive, clean, and accurate and since it's a good replica of a good self defense load it really gives a sense of confidence...after all, in a perfect world we would all train with what we would carry.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I'm trying to work up a decent factory equivalent 158gr 38 spl practice load for an upcoming snubby revolver class. I prefer to use a plated bullet for this class, due to the number of rounds fired during the day …

Is anyone using a 158gr plated bullet with W231 at greater than 4.0grains without any issues?

As I recall the factory duplication for the 158 LSWC was 3.5 grains of Bullseye Powder.

I have a stockpile of Hornady 158 XTP for my 357 Magnum so I wanted to load for the 38 Special too. I found 4.0 grains of W231 was good and then I made training/practice ammunition with the X-Treme Bullets 158 grain plated SWC and they were good too.