Landpimp
Member
WA Dept of Corrections just traded there HK's UPS 9mm for M&P's, why I dont know(but can ask) but they lost a ton on the trades, paid $800, sold back at $325, most all were unfired
LEO use of Smiths...???...
- Thread starter Ed333
- Start date
surveyor47 - Most "gunshop guys" are full of poop. Based on what these guys told you, it appears to me that you have found a few such poop filled guys.
I spent years with issued S&W pistols. The manipulation of the safety was trained and INGRAINED in us. It is second nature to this day for my left thumb to sweep the saftylever up as my S&W 3rd gen clears the holster.
I read on the internet of the "difficulty" of the DA to SA transition. Never have seen anyone fail to learn how to do this. Is it harder than DAO? Dunno.....maybe. Is it hard to learn? Evidently not. I've personally trained several newb females who had never even held a handgun, to qualify with TDA S&W 3rd generation pistols. They all qualified. One of them still regularly shoots IDPA with her 5904. I guess it boils down to the individual.
Not only have I never heard/read of an officer being killed because he had problems with the manipulation of a S&W safety lever, or trouble with the DA to SA transition, I strongly believe that any such "officer" that did would be discovered during selection and rookie school and counseled to seek a career in the hospitality/housekeeping industry.
I suspect that those gunshop guys probably had "just what you need" in the gun case for you.
Buy and shoot the 3rd generation pistols with confidence. It evidently won't get any better than them....at least from S&W anyway. Regards 18DAI.
I spent years with issued S&W pistols. The manipulation of the safety was trained and INGRAINED in us. It is second nature to this day for my left thumb to sweep the saftylever up as my S&W 3rd gen clears the holster.
I read on the internet of the "difficulty" of the DA to SA transition. Never have seen anyone fail to learn how to do this. Is it harder than DAO? Dunno.....maybe. Is it hard to learn? Evidently not. I've personally trained several newb females who had never even held a handgun, to qualify with TDA S&W 3rd generation pistols. They all qualified. One of them still regularly shoots IDPA with her 5904. I guess it boils down to the individual.
Not only have I never heard/read of an officer being killed because he had problems with the manipulation of a S&W safety lever, or trouble with the DA to SA transition, I strongly believe that any such "officer" that did would be discovered during selection and rookie school and counseled to seek a career in the hospitality/housekeeping industry.
I suspect that those gunshop guys probably had "just what you need" in the gun case for you.
Buy and shoot the 3rd generation pistols with confidence. It evidently won't get any better than them....at least from S&W anyway. Regards 18DAI.
surveyor47
Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2005
- Messages
- 182
- Reaction score
- 5
I own two 3rd generation semi autos, but dont shoot them a whole lot. I have pretty much gone back to my revolvers.
This whole semi auto debate got started because my son, who is in the USMC, wanted to buy his first handgun while on leave. I offered him my S&W 3rd generations autos, but he rejected them. He wanted a 45 and he doesnt like the 1911, so I looked at a whole lot of different guns. I suggested a S&W 3rd generation 45ACP. Rejected by son. I insisted that any gun in our home would have some sort of external safety. I am not keen on relying on a holster as a primary safety device. The minimum level of safety that I am willing to put up with is a grip safety. My son setttled on a Springfield XD Compact 45, which seems to be a decent gun. I fired one the other day and hit the 100 yard gong starting with the 2nd shot, so Im impressed.
My S&W CS9 & CS40 have been so badmouthed that Im starting to wonder about them, despite the fact that I shoot them well, but not as well as that XD.
This whole semi auto debate got started because my son, who is in the USMC, wanted to buy his first handgun while on leave. I offered him my S&W 3rd generations autos, but he rejected them. He wanted a 45 and he doesnt like the 1911, so I looked at a whole lot of different guns. I suggested a S&W 3rd generation 45ACP. Rejected by son. I insisted that any gun in our home would have some sort of external safety. I am not keen on relying on a holster as a primary safety device. The minimum level of safety that I am willing to put up with is a grip safety. My son setttled on a Springfield XD Compact 45, which seems to be a decent gun. I fired one the other day and hit the 100 yard gong starting with the 2nd shot, so Im impressed.
My S&W CS9 & CS40 have been so badmouthed that Im starting to wonder about them, despite the fact that I shoot them well, but not as well as that XD.
HayesGreener
US Veteran
You beat me to the draw. By the time an officer fires 2500-3000 rounds at the academy and qualifies several times a year the "safety gets you killed" BS is just that, BS. It is a Glock marketing ploy. Sweeping the safety off is just a natural thing to do while drawing if you have been properly trained. I also have not heard of a single case where a properly trained officer has been injured in a gunfight because he forgot to take the safety off his S&W. Now if an officer is dumb enough to try carrying a pistol he is not trained and qualified with, bad things can and will happen. On the other side of the argument I can tell you there are documented cases where both the S&W thumb safety and the magazine disconnect have saved officers from being shot with their own weapon.
I still carry a 4506. It's a fine gun. It feels like a boat anchor on your side after about 12 hours though. That "safety" on the side is a de-cocker, at least that's how we were taught. I carry mine with one in the chamber and the de-cocker is not down. To mirror the other replies, those gun shop guys were full of mess.
Here in NC Sig is trying to get back in the game by practically giving their guns away to some departments, same with Beretta. We had Model 10's, 19's, victory Models and the sort before going to the 4506, and we're getting to get the M&P.
One of the reasons we're switching is due to necessity- S&W doesn't make our gun anymore, if we want new ones we have to special order in certain numbers.
Here in NC Sig is trying to get back in the game by practically giving their guns away to some departments, same with Beretta. We had Model 10's, 19's, victory Models and the sort before going to the 4506, and we're getting to get the M&P.
One of the reasons we're switching is due to necessity- S&W doesn't make our gun anymore, if we want new ones we have to special order in certain numbers.
surveyor47
Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2005
- Messages
- 182
- Reaction score
- 5
What does your training say about carrying with the hammer down and decocker/safety in the "fire" position? Your position, that it is carried in the "fire" position makes sence, because the gun has a double action trigger that feels much like a double action revolver, with little likelyhood of accidental discharge unless you deliberately pull the trigger. You simply draw and fire.
I bet the complaints regarding the 3rd Generation Decocker/Safety are the result of people carrying the gun holstered in the "safe" position. You would then have to draw, move the safety to fire position and then fire.
In my opinion, the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos are much safer, particularly for civilians, than Glock clones. Still, I like my revolvers better than any semi auto.
I bet the complaints regarding the 3rd Generation Decocker/Safety are the result of people carrying the gun holstered in the "safe" position. You would then have to draw, move the safety to fire position and then fire.
In my opinion, the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos are much safer, particularly for civilians, than Glock clones. Still, I like my revolvers better than any semi auto.
State of NC calls for a gun to be de-cocked (if it is equipped)before it is holstered after each string of fire. How they carry it is up to them. If a department carries a 1911 (I know of no such department wide carry, just for specialized units) they can carry on an empty chamber or cocked and locked.
I like the revolvers too, I would carry one without reservations. I carry a 642 all the time regardless, it's a very accurate gun.
I like the revolvers too, I would carry one without reservations. I carry a 642 all the time regardless, it's a very accurate gun.
Demand documentation of "those many officers killed trying to manipulate the safety". Ditto the transition. The transition only comes into play at 25 yards and beyond for most people. What you're hearing is, to be polite, faerie tales. Let me be blunt here. If such incidents happened there would be multiple legal actions for design flaws and/or lack of training. There aren't any!
The poly pistols replaced the steel for one major reason: price. For what it would have cost us to phase out our oldest steel S&Ws, we were able to buy everyone new M&Ps. In our case, price wasn't the deciding factor, the performance of the new design was outstanding. Having the same trigger stroke all the time is a wonderous thing.
Amici
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2008
- Messages
- 707
- Reaction score
- 8
Got that right. Whether it's my revolver or my 1911, the same pull each time, every time is A Good Thing.
I believe the LAPD can use the 4563TSW - that's the aluminum frame version of the 4566. Someone else here could probably confirm that.
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Most departments carry traditional DA/SA pistols with the safety/decocker lever in the "fire" position. "Decocking" after one or more shots is always taught as two motions, down to decock and then up to make ready to fire again, before holstering, so it is always ready to fire. The opinion is justified with several arguments: 1- We carried revolvers with no safety for decades, just point and shoot. 2- The decocker/safety on most such pistols is located high up on the slide, where the thumb has to reach for it and it is easy to miss it during the draw stroke. 3- Since many departments were transitioning from revolvers to their first pistol, a pistol with no safety lever required, just pint and shoot, was the same thing the revolver-armed offier had already trained with, so re-training with such a poistol as a Glock or DAO version of another pistol would be easier/faster/cheaper. "Don't get caught with your dingus down."
The departments that carry with the safety/decocker in the "safe" position say the first resason above, that we carried revolvers with no safety for years and it was just fine, is false; yes, we carried them, but it wasn't 'fine' as guns got taken from officers and with no safety, even the untrained could just point and shoot; any manual safety would at least slow that down and give the officer time to take some counter-measure. Those same departments say that, if the office is trained to always hit that safety during the draw stroke, it becomes automatic and isn't a problem, as the safety stroke takes less time than the draw and, as both are done at the same time, use of the safety/decocker as a safety doesn't slow the first shot at all. And now, since few departments are going from revolvers to pistols, just maybe from one pistol to another, point-and-shoot isn't as big a deal and is outweighed by the claimed safety benefits of having the pistol harder to shoot without training.
My department has bought a range of types with no consistency. Our first pistol was the DA/SA S&W M-4006, then some DAO Beretta 96's, some Glocks, then some DA/SA Sigs (the decock lever pops back to 'fire' by itself after being depressed) and now some S&W M&P's.
Each has had it's own training and operator issues. A dedicated officer willing to train and practice can carry, manipulate and shoot any of the designs adequately, while an officer who is indifferent and doesn't ever practice on their own may have trouble with any system.
Citizen shooters will have the same issues.
Why plastic? Most governments usually have to buy stuff on the basis of the lowest price that meets the buyer's specifications. A buyer can usually guarantee getting any specific brand or model he wants by careful writing of the bid specifications.
Why are police departments no longer buying metal framed pistols? First is costs, second is weight, third is probably simplicity of operation of most of the polymer guns, just point-and-shoot with no lever manipulation needed. Soon, add lack of availability of new metal framed pistols.
Cost is self-explanatory. Simple is seen as an advantage as it cuts down training, which is also a cost issue for wages and ammunition. Weight is a factor more than ever because the amount of gear on an officer's belt is greater than ever; besides the pistol and a pair of magazines, the officer usually has to also carry 2 pair of handcuffs, portable radio, a Taser, O.C. spray, baton, flashlight, mebbe a disposable glove pouch, maybe a cell phone. Anything lighter is seen as better.
Man, am I long-winded.
The departments that carry with the safety/decocker in the "safe" position say the first resason above, that we carried revolvers with no safety for years and it was just fine, is false; yes, we carried them, but it wasn't 'fine' as guns got taken from officers and with no safety, even the untrained could just point and shoot; any manual safety would at least slow that down and give the officer time to take some counter-measure. Those same departments say that, if the office is trained to always hit that safety during the draw stroke, it becomes automatic and isn't a problem, as the safety stroke takes less time than the draw and, as both are done at the same time, use of the safety/decocker as a safety doesn't slow the first shot at all. And now, since few departments are going from revolvers to pistols, just maybe from one pistol to another, point-and-shoot isn't as big a deal and is outweighed by the claimed safety benefits of having the pistol harder to shoot without training.
My department has bought a range of types with no consistency. Our first pistol was the DA/SA S&W M-4006, then some DAO Beretta 96's, some Glocks, then some DA/SA Sigs (the decock lever pops back to 'fire' by itself after being depressed) and now some S&W M&P's.
Each has had it's own training and operator issues. A dedicated officer willing to train and practice can carry, manipulate and shoot any of the designs adequately, while an officer who is indifferent and doesn't ever practice on their own may have trouble with any system.
Citizen shooters will have the same issues.
Why plastic? Most governments usually have to buy stuff on the basis of the lowest price that meets the buyer's specifications. A buyer can usually guarantee getting any specific brand or model he wants by careful writing of the bid specifications.
Why are police departments no longer buying metal framed pistols? First is costs, second is weight, third is probably simplicity of operation of most of the polymer guns, just point-and-shoot with no lever manipulation needed. Soon, add lack of availability of new metal framed pistols.
Cost is self-explanatory. Simple is seen as an advantage as it cuts down training, which is also a cost issue for wages and ammunition. Weight is a factor more than ever because the amount of gear on an officer's belt is greater than ever; besides the pistol and a pair of magazines, the officer usually has to also carry 2 pair of handcuffs, portable radio, a Taser, O.C. spray, baton, flashlight, mebbe a disposable glove pouch, maybe a cell phone. Anything lighter is seen as better.
Man, am I long-winded.
surveyor47
Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2005
- Messages
- 182
- Reaction score
- 5
Thanks for the informative answers. My semi auto training was on the 1911A2, which I still believe to be great for military purposes, but poorly set up for a police officer who must take people into custody or a civilian in a close up surprise encounter with criminals. Long ago, I decided that the proper tool for either of those jobs was a revolver. Nothing has changed that opinion.
I have tried the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos and the CZ75BSA. The CZ75BSA has the same basic defects as the 1911 for close up, surprise encounters. The S&W 3rd Generation semi autos are much closer to my revolvers. They seem to be good guns, but after trying them for a while, they went back into my safe and I rediscovered my revolvers.
My son is a died in the wool semi auto kid, but it was me and his uncle (retired police instructor) who coached him on the CZ75B single action when he was regularly being issued an M9, but had never received training on it. He finally got instruction and range time on the M9 and qualified as sharpshooter. If he had listened more in years past, he could have qualified as expert, as he did on the M4 carbine. His present to himself was the Springfield XD 45. He thinks my revolvers are "old". Well, some of my revolvers are older than he is and I can still outshoot him with them, at least for the first 6 rounds.
I have tried the S&W 3rd Generation semi autos and the CZ75BSA. The CZ75BSA has the same basic defects as the 1911 for close up, surprise encounters. The S&W 3rd Generation semi autos are much closer to my revolvers. They seem to be good guns, but after trying them for a while, they went back into my safe and I rediscovered my revolvers.
My son is a died in the wool semi auto kid, but it was me and his uncle (retired police instructor) who coached him on the CZ75B single action when he was regularly being issued an M9, but had never received training on it. He finally got instruction and range time on the M9 and qualified as sharpshooter. If he had listened more in years past, he could have qualified as expert, as he did on the M4 carbine. His present to himself was the Springfield XD 45. He thinks my revolvers are "old". Well, some of my revolvers are older than he is and I can still outshoot him with them, at least for the first 6 rounds.
Many informative responses...
I have a much better understanding. For one thing, I had forgotten that organizational decisions must inevitably reflect a lot of compromise, politics and fudge factors that go beyond a nice simple quality assessment.
"The right way, the wrong way, and the Marine Corps way", how could I have forgotten...
Thanks to all. As a private individual, I am free to continue to enjoy my Smiths and 1911's, free of these extraneous factors.
I have a much better understanding. For one thing, I had forgotten that organizational decisions must inevitably reflect a lot of compromise, politics and fudge factors that go beyond a nice simple quality assessment.
"The right way, the wrong way, and the Marine Corps way", how could I have forgotten...
Thanks to all. As a private individual, I am free to continue to enjoy my Smiths and 1911's, free of these extraneous factors.
We issued and carried S&W autos for 32 yrs. We were the first agency to issue autos and also the 9mm. At any given time over those 32 yrs we would have anywhere between 1700 and 2200 guns on the street depending on staffing. The safety was never an issue inspite of what all the gun shop commandos have repeated over the years. If you believed the stories then we must have been losing dozens of Troops every year who didn't work their safety. Just never happened.
In 1998 we started doing our statewide tests for new guns. We tested 15 different makes and models over a year. Some of the testing criteria was objective, some subjective. When the scores were add at the end the top 3, in order, were SIG, S&W, and Glock. The others rated further down the list. Bids were solicited from the 3 for 2550 guns, night sights, new leather, 750 rds training ammo for every Troop and we would trade in our 5904/6904. Glock's bid was just a few dollars over $250,000. S&W's bid was double Glock's bid. SIG's bid was over 4 times Glock's bid. The legislature had only funded $250,000 so Glock got the contract.
In 1998 we started doing our statewide tests for new guns. We tested 15 different makes and models over a year. Some of the testing criteria was objective, some subjective. When the scores were add at the end the top 3, in order, were SIG, S&W, and Glock. The others rated further down the list. Bids were solicited from the 3 for 2550 guns, night sights, new leather, 750 rds training ammo for every Troop and we would trade in our 5904/6904. Glock's bid was just a few dollars over $250,000. S&W's bid was double Glock's bid. SIG's bid was over 4 times Glock's bid. The legislature had only funded $250,000 so Glock got the contract.
Smith61
Member
gunshop bull$%&
As a Police Firearms Instructor I'd just like to slap those "off-duty police gun shop gurus" in the head!
What a crock! I've had to transition from revolvers to DAO polymer wonderguns back to Beretta 92's and NEVER had a problem with the issues they talked about. What a disservice these "experts" do to people with their myths and made-up garbage. I'm willing to bet these same experts only shoot to qualify at the range 1-2 times a year and never actually "trained" in their "professional" lives. They're full of poop as evidenced by the crap coming out of their lips!
As a Police Firearms Instructor I'd just like to slap those "off-duty police gun shop gurus" in the head!
What a crock! I've had to transition from revolvers to DAO polymer wonderguns back to Beretta 92's and NEVER had a problem with the issues they talked about. What a disservice these "experts" do to people with their myths and made-up garbage. I'm willing to bet these same experts only shoot to qualify at the range 1-2 times a year and never actually "trained" in their "professional" lives. They're full of poop as evidenced by the crap coming out of their lips!
andyo5
Member
I think that many cops look at their duty pistol as an appliance, rather than as a collector's item like many non-cops do.
Plastic is easier to maintain and you don't feel so bad if it gets a bit scratched up.
Also it is way lighter and easier to carry all day long.
Plastic is easier to maintain and you don't feel so bad if it gets a bit scratched up.
Also it is way lighter and easier to carry all day long.
Yup, I agree 100%. Too many of those gun shop gurus who are "cops" are really nothing more than door rattlers and have never really done actual police work in their lives. They wear a uniform and badge but all they do is ride in a car, hang out at the 24/7 Stop n Robs trying to impress the clerks, and aren't capable of finding a crook in a prison. They think police training is reading the latest Gall's catalog.
1. $.
2. Failure of purse-holders to recognize different officers require different ergonomics (grips & trigger length) to reach full potential.
3. Failure to write detailed enough specifications.
4. Desire for light weight due to officers' utility belts becoming increasing weighed down with intermediate weapons & restraints.
2. Failure of purse-holders to recognize different officers require different ergonomics (grips & trigger length) to reach full potential.
3. Failure to write detailed enough specifications.
4. Desire for light weight due to officers' utility belts becoming increasing weighed down with intermediate weapons & restraints.
toocool
Member
Going back to the 70's & 80's when I worked first in private security, then in law enforcement, my carry weapons were TDA autos...I've carried and trained with them so much that the action of sweeping the safety up is more natural to me than the down motion of the 1911 safety. And I've never really noticed the transition from DA to SA when firing. My finger just seems to naturally follow the trigger to where it resets, and I've not had any issues. I am one of those who prefers the feel of steel vs. plastic, although I do own a couple of polymer guns which I shoot very well, thank you.
Similar threads
