Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6

[cowboy4evr]

Nevada Ed , you are correct . It was with IMR SR 4756 . My error . Thanks for that . But I do stand by my original post , that I would just shoot them , in a 357 magnum pistol . Regards, Paul

 

[mtgianni]

If you want to break them down a piece of rr tie is great for the job. I would shoot them in a contender bbl chambered for 357 Mag or Max.

 

[Imissedagain]

We all make mistakes..... late '60s .....Piper Cherokee 140 ...running up the engine to check the mag and it flutters and .... OMG!!!
First time I was cocky and did the preflight without reading my checklist..... fuel mixture setting ???
Read that list aloud before every flight after that.

Didn't notice the "max speed in a dive sticker" until I exceeded it....

Reloading..... a 2nd Amendment responsibility!!!

 

[colt_saa]

Please do not confuse my use of a .357 gun to shoot .38 Special cartridges. It is STILL a .38 Special cartridge, even when shot out of a .357 gun, and those 38 Special cartridge limitations are from 5.6gr to a max of 6.2gr, and at 7.2gr in a 38 Special cartridge it is WAY OVER the max limit. In other words it would produce way too much pressure during combustion, and quite possibly blow the cylinder, if not the barrel as well.

Modern 38 Special brass is much stronger than is necessary for the loads it is called upon to contain. The reason 357 Magnum brass is 1/8" longer is not to create a case that can handle Magnum loads better, 357 Magnum brass is 1/8" longer to create a case that can not be unintentionally chambered in 38 Special revolvers

There is just no way that load would blow up a 686 cylinder. Your cylinder is simply not a possible point of catastrophic failure in this scenario

The pressure generated by your load is way below 357 Magnum proof levels let alone below 357 Magnum loading levels.

In a worst case scenario if you used 38 Special brass that has been reloaded many, many times might experience a case split, but that could also happen with 357 Magnum brass that has been reloaded many, many times

 

[colt_saa]

BTW, I was wondering about getting screwed up switching 38Sp to 357Mag back and forth. Paranoid to say the least, but it has paid off.

I just bought myself a second set of Lee dies and a extra tool head because I hate going through all that re-adjustment every time from 38->357->38->357->38->357 etc.

 

[joeintexas]

Mike, years ago when I had a 686 I shot some really hot loads through it, both 38s and 357s. Can't say it did any harm to the 686. That's a pretty stout pistol you have there. Good luck.

 

[HorizontalMike]

I just bought myself a second set of Lee dies and a extra tool head because I hate going through all that re-adjustment every time from 38->357->38->357->38->357 etc.

I understand, though that is the reason for my reloading 500 rounds of 357 at a time. BTW, I have enough N105 (8lb) to reload my 357s for 5,000 rounds. Only have 4lb of HS6, but truly want to have 38 loads for my little carry 642. I only am using my 357 for working up proper loads for the 38. NOT interested in maximum loads at this point in my life, just steady and consistent fun...

And besides, this post has led to my ordering higher quality collet pullers for not only my 38/357 but ALSO for my Rem 222. And like you, bought another Lee 4-hole turret to mount them in for convenience. Much to be said about convenience

 

[Forrest r]

Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

You get to spend 8 hours pulling bullets and reflecting on what went wrong. And you get to learn about a new reloading tool.

 

[AlHunt]

Credit to you for admitting the mistake, so I'm not trying to beat up on you at all. One cardinal rule I've always followed is only the components you're using at the moment on the bench. I, too, think they'd be fine in your 686 but the right thing is to pull them and start over, as you're obviously doing. None of us are perfect.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

HorizontalMike, like the others have said, those rounds are perfectly safe to shoot in your M686. The pressure generated by 7.2gr will not even approach the starting load for a .357 Magnum. I realize the cases are slightly shorter but pressure is pressure. You will do no harm at all to a .357 Magnum revolver capable of handling 35,000 psi or more. Don't let the case head stamp confuse you.

Thank you for your service and for joining the NRA.

 

[HorizontalMike]

HorizontalMike, like the others have said, those rounds are perfectly safe to shoot in your M686. The pressure generated by 7.2gr will not even approach the starting load for a .357 Magnum. I realize the cases are slightly shorter but pressure is pressure. You will do no harm at all to a .357 Magnum revolver capable of handling 35,000 psi or more. Don't let the case head stamp confuse you.

Thank you or your service and for joining the NRA.

And that is what I am having trouble with. I am loading 38 brass to shoot in my 642, and not in my 686s. I have a Schmidt-load of powder and brass for my 357s, 5k or more rounds. I want and need 38 loads, and not even the +P variety.
After all, the 642 is my CC weapon of choice and I have the need to keep proficient with it. And the 642 is the only DA-ONLY that I currently own. My 357s are for the fun of it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I hear what you're saying, I'm only saying instead of buying tools for a one time mistake just unload them by shooting them in your M686 and be done with it.

 

[BC38]

I hear what you're saying, I'm only saying instead of buying tools for a one time mistake just unload them by shooting them in your M686 and be done with it.

Ditto.

Unless I couldn't afford to replace the components, I'd rather replace them than waste all the I time spent loading them AND waste even more time breaking them down - just to invest even more time to reload them with the "right" powder charge.

If salvaging the components means more to you than the time you'll invest to do it, then by all means, break them down. I'd rather unload them the fun way & THEN load some new ones with the lower powder charge. But that's just me (and a few other people who've posted the same answer).

 

[Skeetr57]

A couple of war stories along the same lines as the OP. Forty or so years ago, I used to load a lot of .44 Special with cast bullets, and one day in a gunshop I found a used Lyman mould number 429348 at a bargain. This is a flat nose wadcutter bullet. When I got it home, I looked up the bullet in the Lyman manual, where it said that it was a 180gr bullet when cast of Lyman #2 alloy, so I proceeded to load up 50 rounds with a powder charge appropriate for that weight. I don't recall now, but the powder was probably Unique. When I tested them at the range, I used 6 1/2" model 29, and the recoil was much heavier than I expected, so I did the research I should have done to begin with. I weighed the bullets I was using and found them to weigh 240 grains, not the 180 that I was expecting. More research into some older references showed the the same bullet had at one time been made in two different weights with the same mould number. I was just lucky that I did my test firing in the M29 rather than the triple lock target that I intended to use the load in.
The other tale involves the infamous Speer #8 manual. I did a little bowling pin shooting at one time, and wanted to try a .38 special. I found a load in the Speer manual for a 110gr JHP that called for 10gr of IMR 4756 powder with very good velocity, so I loaded some up and tried them on the pins, using a fairly new S&W M67. They did a good job on the pins with pretty stout recoil. It wasn't until some time later that I picked up a data sheet from DuPont for 4756 that showed that 10gr was a max load for a .357 mag., and far exceeded the pressure for a .38 Spl.
The fact that the M67 wasn't hurt just shows how much S&W over builds their modern guns.
My recommendation would be to pull the loads down. I think that an N frame S&W would digest them, but why take a chance on ruining a nice gun or getting hurt?

 

[Sevens]

Regarding the Model 67 and the .357-rated load that you sent through it...

It has long been my THEORY (only a theory, no empirical data, zero evidence, no inside information and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) that modern K-frame .38 Special cylinders are no different than modern K-frame .357 Magnum cylinders except that they are slightly shorter and with shorter chambers.

Why?
Typical industrial manufacturing, process, stock and COSTS.

Production on a large scale... it makes far more sense for Smith & Wesson to basically have one part (a K-frame .357 cylinder) produced exactly the same way and then adapted for it's specific destination. In this case, there would obviously be two parts (carbon steel and stainless) but for Smith & Wesson to produce and stock a load of cylinders that are only appropriate and spec'd for the 18,500 PSI Max pressure of .38 Special+P all the while producing and stocking .357 Mag K-frame cylinders meant specifically for 35,000 PSI would not make sense in large scale production and it would likely cost them more money.

I'm not suggesting that we all take our Model 10's and build red-hot bombs for them, but my theory says that any Model 10, 14, 15, 64 or 67 is quite likely to be oblivious if you put ten boxes of ".357 loads stuffed in to .38 length brass" through them.

I believe the modern Model 24/624 .44 Special is built the same way, easily handling loads far beyond the anemic limit of .44 Special.

 

[BC38]

Skeetr57, don't take this wrong, but please explain what you see as the risk to shooting these loads in ANY 357 magnum revolver.

The charge that was loaded is just above or - right at the very top - of the range for 38 special +P (depending on which data source you use), and it is below the starting charge for 357 magnum regardless of what source you use.

38 special brass is no weaker than 357 brass.

The case volume of 38 special brass is no more than 10% less than 357 brass.

So what exactly is the chance of "ruining a nice gun or getting hurt" - as you see it?

I'm genuinely interested in understanding why you would go to the trouble to break them all down, because it makes no sense to me, given the facts. But I'm always open to learning something new.

 

[BC38]

Regarding the Model 67 and the .357-rated load that you sent through it...

It has long been my THEORY (only a theory, no empirical data, zero evidence, no inside information and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) that modern K-frame .38 Special cylinders are no different than modern K-frame .357 Magnum cylinders except that they are slightly shorter and with shorter chambers.

Why?
Typical industrial manufacturing, process, stock and COSTS.

Production on a large scale... it makes far more sense for Smith & Wesson to basically have one part (a K-frame .357 cylinder) produced exactly the same way and then adapted for it's specific destination. In this case, there would obviously be two parts (carbon steel and stainless) but for Smith & Wesson to produce and stock a load of cylinders that are only appropriate and spec'd for the 18,500 PSI Max pressure of .38 Special+P all the while producing and stocking .357 Mag K-frame cylinders meant specifically for 35,000 PSI would not make sense in large scale production and it would likely cost them more money.

I'm not suggesting that we all take our Model 10's and build red-hot bombs for them, but my theory says that any Model 10, 14, 15, 64 or 67 is quite likely to be oblivious if you put ten boxes of ".357 loads stuffed in to .38 length brass" through them.

I believe the modern Model 24/624 .44 Special is built the same way, easily handling loads far beyond the anemic limit of .44 Special.

THIS makes sense. In addition to the additional expense and complexity of producing nearly identical cylinders with different heat treatments and strengths for the two different cartridges, there would also be the HUGE potential liability if a batch of 38 special cylinders ever got mistakenly used to build a bunch of 357 magnum revolvers.

It just makes no logical sense to believe that they would use separate processes and production lines to produce the cylinder blanks when it would be simpler, more cost effective, and would dramatically reduce potential for liability from mistakes to just make the all the 38 special and 357 magnum cylinders all from the same blanks and THEN machine them for the specific cartridge they will chamber.

Can anyone come up with some compelling reason or explanation why they would go to that kind of expense and risk to complicate their manufacturing process? If so I'd be really interested to read about it.

 

[hdwhit]

I've used the same kinetic bullet puller for 25+ years and it still hasn't broken - they're tougher than you would think at first sight.

If you want to avoid hammering 100 rounds, any collet style bullet puller should work for this job. I have the RCBS one simply because most of my equipment is RCBS and they really stand behind their products if there's a problem.

Good luck.

 

[scooter123]

Hodgdon says that 6.6gr is max for 38SP +P so I don't think shooting those would be a good idea even in 357 revolver.

Hodgdon also states the maximum charge for 357 Magnum with a 158 grain XTP is 9.5 grains of HS-6. So, in a 38 special case the volume is a bit less than the 357 Magnum so that would tend to cause a more rapid rise in pressure and a bit higher pressure. However 7.2 grains is well below the listed maximum for 357 Magnum. IMO it would probably not be at all harmful to the 686 to shoot these loads, most likely they will behave a moderately mild 357 Magnum. Probably the only potential for a problem might be sticking cases or perhaps some split cases. Considering what Elmer Keith and others were doing with the 38 special back in the 1930's my hunch is that the cases won't actually be harmed at all.

However if you want to play it safe then just break them down. I once had about 300 round of 45 ACP get water logged in a corner of my baement that flooded due to a blocked downspout. Since I don't enjoy the thought of a Squib ruining a range day I broke all 300 down with a whack a mole bullet puller and it held up just fine. Fact is it's still in good shape 2 years later. BTW, only found 6 rounds with water in the powder but 6 is still too many, now I pay close attention to my downspouts in the Fall and the Spring.

 

[BC38]

FWIW, I broke down 260 rounds of 38 S&W using a kinetic puller last year.
BUT, that was because I got them as reloads at a gun show for $5, and I figured the bullets & brass were worth saving.
Resized the bullets to .358 and sold the primed brass for $20

 

[HorizontalMike]

I've used the same kinetic bullet puller for 25+ years and it still hasn't broken - they're tougher than you would think at first sight.

If you want to avoid hammering 100 rounds, any collet style bullet puller should work for this job. I have the RCBS one simply because most of my equipment is RCBS and they really stand behind their products if there's a problem.

Good luck.

I ended up ordering the Forster collet puller with collets for both my 38 and 222. Also ordered another 4-place turret to pop them in&out of my Lee turret press.

BTW, I have used my whack-a-mole puller a few times, but find it more stressful than it's worth IMO.
One thing I did learn from all this is to adjust my crimp setting a bit.
Forster Collet Style Bullet Puller - MPN: BP1010

 

[MichiganScott]

I've never been able to pull handgun bullets with a collet puller because of the bullet profile. I find the hammer pullers to be more trouble that the reloads are worth if there is more than a couple that need pulling.

If in doubt, dispose of the cartridges.

 

[HorizontalMike]

Another Unexpected Lesson Leanred

While waiting on my new collet bullet puller, I had 13 empty barss of 38s. Remembering that I set up for 125gr, 7.2gr., 38s I thought I would do a short run for the Halibut... I double checked the powder charge multiple times, and made sure I HAD the 125XTPs this time!

Well, I quickly finished the 13 cartridges, so I thought I would weigh them post-loading. Boy was I surprised! I found some of them weighed in as I expected, but then I got an extreme variation, like 7.4 grains too heavy! (Double charge?)...

I still had my whack-a-mole hammer so I pulled about three or so, so I could measure the powder charge. THAT did not work so well since case/bullet lube caused the powder to stick on both bullets and case edges...

For the life of me, I could NOT understand that 7.4 grain delta! The powder looked to be ~about the correct amount, so I decided to weight the empty brass cases. In the past My Starline brass was +-.1gr nearly all of the time. But NOW I was finding a big difference!

Finally, I realized that my ammo reloads (Fiocchi brass) was weighing in at a 7.4gr Delta, and I was worried about a double charge! LESSON LEARNED. The brand of brass matters. Looks like the Fiocchi brass is much more stout than the Starline.

I ended up calculating the difference between brass+bullet in order to see just how much powder I real had in these Fiocchi cartridges. See the inserted image.

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

Shoot em. Quickload says your combo is a near max 38+P load. 18,000psi
357mag is 35,000psi max. Youre fine
If you dont report back we will assume you lost your fingers and/or vision and I was wrong

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

While waiting on my new collet bullet puller, I had 13 empty barss of 38s. Remembering that I set up for 125gr, 7.2gr., 38s I thought I would do a short run for the Halibut... I double checked the powder charge multiple times, and made sure I HAD the 125XTPs this time!

Well, I quickly finished the 13 cartridges, so I thought I would weigh them post-loading. Boy was I surprised! I found some of them weighed in as I expected, but then I got an extreme variation, like 7.4 grains too heavy! (Double charge?)...

I still had my whack-a-mole hammer so I pulled about three or so, so I could measure the powder charge. THAT did not work so well since case/bullet lube caused the powder to stick on both bullets and case edges...

For the life of me, I could NOT understand that 7.4 grain delta! The powder looked to be ~about the correct amount, so I decided to weight the empty brass cases. In the past My Starline brass was +-.1gr nearly all of the time. But NOW I was finding a big difference!

Finally, I realized that my ammo reloads (Fiocchi brass) was weighing in at a 7.4gr Delta, and I was worried about a double charge! LESSON LEARNED. The brand of brass matters. Looks like the Fiocchi brass is much more stout than the Starline.

I ended up calculating the difference between brass+bullet in order to see just how much powder I real had in these Fiocchi cartridges. See the inserted image.

This is why target reloaders sort brass not only by brand but also by weight.
Be especially careful of military brass. A pet load in a standard case can be overcharged in military brass.

 

[dr. mordo]

I found an old thread that is pertinent here.

BLUF: 8gr of HS6 under a 158gr LSWC showed minor signs of overpressure.

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

This goes back to how gutless modern .38 SPL loads are.

 

[Firesticks]

Some bad advice here! An overloaded .38 special is NOT a .357 mag! It is an OVERLOADED .38 special! The smaller case will generate much more pressure with those charges. DO NOT fire them! The results may be a damaged gun or MUCH worse. Pull em and start over.

 

[crstrode]

The Speer #8 manual shows a max load of HS-6 behind a 158 grain lead SWC as 8.0 grains. The starting load is 7.0 grains

Don't strain your brain - the 686 will eat your wimpy 7.2 grain load and never hiccup.

 

[dr. mordo]

Some bad advice here! An overloaded .38 special is NOT a .357 mag! It is an OVERLOADED .38 special! The smaller case will generate much more pressure with those charges. DO NOT fire them! The results may be a damaged gun or MUCH worse. Pull em and start over.

If 8gr of HS6 in a .38 SPL shell didn't generate overpressure (proof linked above), I'm pretty sure he'd be ok with almost a grain less powder.

 

[HorizontalMike]

Got my Collet Bullet Puller AND PULLED THEM!

Just wanted to let everyone know that I finally got my collet puller, and after screwing up 2-3 rounds, I got things adjusted and finished out pulling the ~100 overloaded rounds. Only negative thing to say about this is that this Forster puller works in my 4-hole Lee Turret, but the turret does not want to stay locked in to the one slot. It keeps wanting to shift the turret when tightening/loosening the grip on the bullet. PITA, but not too bad. Got all pulled in less than 1-1/2hr.

The best part of this is that reloading THESE pulled rounds has allowed me to test several new loads of HS6 with both the 125 and 158xtps in the 38. Actually find out that a max load of HS6 with the 158xtp is NOT as fast or steady as a lesser load of same. In other words, I learned two things:

1. How to efficiently pull large numbers of bullets
2. Test several NEW load possible loads with these salvaged reloads.
   
   
   And yes, I did chronograph these as yet another learning curve. All said and done, I am glad I have learned from this experience and will not, in the future, attempt to just "get by" with any of my reloading mistakes. I have found this well worth the time and effort to quantify my possibilities by salvaging my over-loads.