M&P 15-22 POI shift...solutions?

[tacticaledge]

Do you have excess play in you upper & lower reciever excess play may cause vibration and shift poi by alot..
and btw not trying to be a s.a. just tryin to help wolverine dont like to hear someones unhappy. goodluck

 

[true_shooter]

man i'm lost, you've covered all the bases. the only other thing i could think of would be to have somebody who in your opinion is a better shot than you try firing it. try something like this.... preferably indoors or on a super calm weathered day shooter a shoots a 5 shot group then from the same shooting position shooter b shoots 5 shots. try this with at least 3 times with each type of ammo you have on hand, so 3 groups (or more) fired by each shooter with each type of ammo. also keep an eye out for anybody at your range using a "leadsled" or some variant type of ransom rest, and politley ask to barrow it. that way you can lock the rifle in place to take out as much human error as possible then fire a few groups through it with whatever ammo you have on hand. I hope we can get this figured out for ya.

 

[true_shooter]

Do you have excess play in you upper & lower reciever excess play may cause vibration and shift poi by alot..
and btw not trying to be a s.a. just tryin to help wolverine dont like to hear someones unhappy. goodluck

If you do notice play, look into an "accu-wedge"

 

[true_shooter]

True shooter is very correct, wolverine if you want accuracy from a .22 get a bolt action or for more accuracy get a bolt action .17 hmr

+1 I picked up a marlin model 81 off the used rack at my local cabelas for less than 80 bucks the rifle was built in the late 30's and shoots very small groups at 100 yards. also just picked up a savage model 93 classic in .17hmr she shoots just as beautifuly as she looks.

 

[wolverine]

Afternoon true_shooter

No play between upper & lower (in fact it is a very tight push to get it to line up to push rear pin back in).

As far as getting another shooter involved> I have at the range as there are 2 other 15-22 owners that show up there occasionally (one a competitive long range rifle shooter) . I have shot theirs & they have shot mine. Other than a slightly different POI my groups are actually better than theirs with my 15-22.

Thing is, I seldom take one gun out to shoot so-- at same bench, same sitting, same weather, same ammo my CMMG 22 will shoot to 1.5"-2" almost every time @50 yards. My bolt 22s will group to an inch or less @ 50 yards (no wind). My M-4 5.56 & AR's 5.56 will group to under 1" consistently at 50 yards. Why would I consistently shoot the 15-22 worse than the others ?

As I said in a post above, the scope cross hairs stay on the dot all the way until recoil.

I have been shooting for a lot of years (well over 55 years now) & I do occasionally shoot a bad or pulled shot but I can always call that shot before even looking at the target.

I have pretty well given up on the 15-22 as anything more than short range off-hand bullet slinger. Just not accurate enough for me to do longer range precision AR-M-4 training with. I now use a CMMG 22 (real AR platform) & while not competitively accurate is good enough to do precision 50 yard head shot practice. From what I have seen in my original15-22 & the one I just got back form S&W with new barrel & new bolt group it would be about right accuracy wise to match up to my Russian AK-47 with low grade surplus 3rd world ammo.

Lots of people happy with the 15-22 but just accurate enough for me personally.

 

[tacticaledge]

sorry we couldnt help your cause wolverine good luck we tried I still hope you can figure this out,

 

[THEolfart]

Maybe I missed it somewhere...have you opened-up the barrel hole of the rail front cap or removed it entirely? I removed my cap, Dremel drum-sanded the hole larger so no matter where the forerail is supported (by hand, on a bench, with a bipod), it's not making contact with the barrel. Doing that really settled-down the accuracy bigtime.

 

[tacticaledge]

Maybe I missed it somewhere...have you opened-up the barrel hole of the rail front cap or removed it entirely? I removed my cap, Dremel drum-sanded the hole larger so no matter where the forerail is supported (by hand, on a bench, with a bipod), it's not making contact with the barrel. Doing that really settled-down the accuracy bigtime.

free floating barrel is always more accurate,,,,,I missed that one good sugestion might do that my self...

 

[wolverine]

Afternoon THEolfart

Yes, I mentioned that is one of my posts above. I removed that front fore-end cap & the accuracy actually got a bit worse. A couple of others on other 22 sites have also noticed the accuracy get worse without that front cap in place. So I reinstalled that cap & it went back to a bit better.

One of the things that is on my list to try is to remove that front cap again then make an adjustable barrel support/tuning block to go between the fore-end & the barrel bottom (like on the 10-22).

 

[true_shooter]

good luck man

 

[THEolfart]

Wolverine..interesting, and a question: what kind of sights/optics were you using when you did that conversion and back? If it was a scope, were the mounts split between the rail on the frame and the forerail, or just attached on one or the other? Thanks! s/fart

 

[wolverine]

Morning THEolfart's

No split scope mounting, the scope mount is totally & solidly mounted on the upper receiver rail (only). I pretty well use the Burris AR-P.E.P.R. one piece on all my AR/M-4 platforms. It seems to be a very solid well built scope mount for the money.

The scope is very solidly mounted to the upper, the upper seems to be solidly attached to the lower. But the entire gun is not very stiff & seems very soft & compliant.

If the lower receiver on my fully assembled 15-22 is laid solidly on a bench & held down tightly then the barrel is lightly displaced with the other hand you can easily move the barrel a bit while watching the receiver flex & twist around. In fact you can even see the closed bolt move around a bit as the barrel muzzle is displaced. (I'm sure some metal reinforcement in the lower receiver & some more reinforcement in the upper receiver at the barrel mounting bushing would go a long ways towards improving bench-rested accuracy.

I'm betting before this gun model runs it's life course S&W will add some metal reinforcement to the receivers to stiffen them a bit (just a guess based on my engineering background)

 

[THEolfart]

Thanks a bunch Wolverine! Interesting observations. I'll have to do some more accuracy testing, when the snow and freezing rain clears around here.

 

[wolverine]

Morning again THEolfart's


Well, after making my remarks on removing the front factory "barrel support" (that's what S&W calls that front fore-end close out). I decided to do some more testing myself this morning as I only did a one day accuracy test on removing it before.

SO, a perfect windless morning with temps in the low 40°f (but very high humidity) I weighed up & separated 400 CCI (only used the ones that weighed within 4 grains of mean average). I'll use the light & heavy ones later for action testing or barrel warm up.

In any case out to my range I went & set up for a very controlled test session.

I shot 10 rounds on steel to warm the barrel up & get the bullet lube even on the barrel innards.

Then (sand bag rested) shot (2) 10 round groups as I have been shooting it (factory barrel support in place). First 10 round group was 4.4" second 10 round group was 4.25" if I didn't count one drastic flyer (wasn't me so I don't know what caused that flier, no bugs to hit this time of year) with the flier it was over 6".

Then I removed the plastic barrel support & shot 2 more 10 round groups. Same sand bags, same bench, same no wind, same target with taped up holes. First group was 5.2" no two holes near each other so more a pattern than a group. Next 10 round went just under 5" again no real group but spread all over in the area of the spot.

So, that got me thinking about needing better or different barrel frontal support anyhow. So I marked the factory barrel support with a white dot on top & reinstalled it back in fore-end. I continued shooting (2) 10 groups per barrel support clocking (possible 4 different positions).

The group center moved around on each different clocking (as I expected from past experience) but what I didn't expect was the change in group size. Worst (10 round group) was back to just under 4.5" & best was 3.3" (only one 10 shot group though). Best group was 1.5" left of center & about 1" low so I re-zeroed my scope & shot 3 more 10 shoot groups with the groups averaging between 3.5" to just under 4".

Still not a stellar shooter but I now know that spending some time fabricating an adjustable barrel support might be worth the effort.

 

[THEolfart]

Great info and write-up!!! One question...100 yards? Thanks so much for your work and taking the time to pass it along! Regards, s/fart

 

[wolverine]

Morning again THEolfart's

No, all at 50 yards as my range only goes to 50 yards.

 

[tacticaledge]

hey wolverine i met someone who had your exact problem and they shipped it back to S&W he got it back they claimed to put in a new barrel and they did but he had the same results needless to say he was not a happy camper he inspected the repair to find that that new barrel settled and the barrel nut was a little loose he snugged it down shot a few mags and he got the shot grouping he was looking for hope this helps you he was about to give up he was happy he didnt, i appoligize i realized i sounded like a s.a. didnt mean too

 

[rojodiablo]

your barrel nut might be a little loose.

Or, the nut behind the barrel might be loose!!!!

In all seriousness, 22lr is a 'dirty' round. The lead definitely has 2 functions; it lubes the barrel as the bullet leaves (Remember leaded gasoline? It was for the lubricating properties.) But as soon as the lead cools a bit, the flight characteristics of the bullet will change.
Some common 22 accuracy issues: First shot fliers after a well shot barrel cools down. You take a short break, and the first round winds up 2-6" off track. The lead coating the barrel gets very grabby, and it makes the next bullet slower and the bullet just does not go as straight as you would like. (The GOOD news- all that extra friction just heated up the residual lead in there, and shot #2 is usually a ringer so long as you do not try to over-compensate.)
Second: 22lr ammo is just not as consistent by nature as a centerfire round. And, when you consider how small it is, there is little room for the powder charge to compensate as it burns. If the primer is a little flat?? Low burn, slow, flier. If the primer is really hot, maybe a really quick burn, and a different kind of flier. Really hot primers in a tiny bullet burn more powder 'right now' and do not allow for smooth pressure build. You feel it as a really snappy shot usually. Often, I thought this was an overcharged bullet with too much powder. But no, it's usually a primer thing.
Third: a hot round. Usually they feel stronger, are louder, and DEFINITELY throw a bigger flame lick out the barrel. They almost always tear up the brass; you see it ripped and sometimes it will stick in the rifle. And these bullets are wild as all get out, some fly real straight, some travel.

I shot competitive match 22 for a while; learned a whole bunch from 22 masters; folks who made me look like a fool for years on end. For plinking, I will clean the rifle only if it is acting up to the point where the action slows or jams more than 1 in 50-100 shots. (I clean the rifle every day after shooting.)
For match level shooting, I will clean the barrel every 25 shots. 5 groups, and down the barrel goes a brush and a patch.

 

[wolverine]

Morning rojodiablo

I hear you on 22 being both dirty & inconsistent. I have been shooting 22 for a long time now so do understand that inconsistency.

I do (precision) weigh & sort all my 22 rounds before shooting for accuracy testing. Not that it is perfect but that usually eliminates the real slow lazy rounds & the real hot snappy rounds.

I also shoot a few warm-up rounds BEFORE shooting for group accuracy to eliminate cold barrel lube issues or lead dragging issues. (still the 15-22 is a poor performer even after barrel warm up)

Even then I get a bit of variance in the groups but ALL my other 22 guns have WAY smaller groups at 50 yards using the very same 22 rounds that I am shooting in the 15-22.

As it sits now my personal 15-22 is just a very poor grouping 22 rifle at 50 yards (bench rested) compared to my other 22 guns using the very same ammo, & same shooting bench, same bags, same shooter, same everything.

On the barrel nut-- I guess I should check that. Just one more variable to be eliminated. My gun has a S&W replacement barrel (original sent in for accuracy issues) & the original barrel nut was tight but the gun still shot very poor groups. I have a barrel nut wrench so I guess I better check the new barrel nut.

 

[Wirenut1212]

I have been watching this thread as I am interested in a M&P 15-22. There are three folks here with one and they all rave on theres. Two of them are getting 1.5" grps or better off a bench at 50 yards, the third doesn't care it is a gun he uses when the grandsons come over and they wanna burn some rounds. Now I know some are going to not believe the 1.5" claims but these guys can shoot, and are not afraid to use good ammo, wolf sk elay and so on. I think you might have just got a crappy gun. Hate to say that but you shouldn't have to mess with a gun that much, not in this price range. I would contact Smith and ask for a new gun not a reworked one. I love my cz's bolt guns I have 3 and one of those shoots better than the other two for sure. Same action different barrel set ups. Shouldn't have to mess with a gun at this price point. I know some folks like to fiddle with guns to wring out all the accuracy but this is not accurate to begin with. Just my two cents. Good luck and keep the reports comming.