M&P .45

[neorebel]

I am a Law Enforcement firearms instructor and for years have shot Glocks. Gone to Glock shooting school and Armorers school. They are boxy! No arguement there. Great combat guns but honestly getting old and they are no more less boxy even the Gen 4. So I shot the Smith and Wesson M&P 45. It fits my hand well. All of the controls are well positioned. No jams ever. (I did have an ejector on a Glock break when I was teaching my class what to do if the ejector broke. Of course you have a worthless gun at that point. Throw it and hope the bad guy fetches it.)

I just put 100 rounds through my new M&P 45. It is superior to Glock in every way. If you are being serious and not biased you will agree. Glock is old and they havn't done anything to really improve it much. It is still boxy and not ergonomic to say the least even with the Gen 4.

Shooting the M&P 45 at the range said it all. Natural pointing, excellent novak sights, tight groups out of the box, (I insist you field strip any gun before going to the range clean and oil it!!!)

Point of aim was right on the money with FMJ rounds. Double taps no problem. Sight alignment and picture excelllent. I love the trigger. I has a slight amount of takeup but then you can feel where the trigger stops and the rest is just one easy solid trigger pull. Nice reset and overtravel is taken care of by the nub on the trigger and on the inside of the trigger guard, Excellent Idea!!!

I don't like striker fired weapons. This one I love. It doesn't have the "twang" of the Glock which I hate.

If you try one and are honest...(NO politicians need apply.) you will agree this is one great pistol!

One more thing..I shoot combat metal targets so I don't go measure the hits on the target. Head shots. Multiple body shots were very nice and hit where I aimed.

All in all an excellent gun and my off duty weapon of choice now.

 

[Fastbolt]

Congrats.

Right there with you. Carried a 3rd gen .45 for work, long time 1911 owner/shooter and worked a significant portion of my career as a firearms instructor.

The M&P 45 is my favorite of the whole M&P pistol line.

I actually enjoy shooting it more than my 1911's most of the time.

Solid, well-balanced, great ergonomics, reliable, accurate, tolerant of several hollowpoints I've tried, predictable trigger and good trigger recovery.

What's not to like?

 

[18DAI]

I'm serious and I don't agree with you.

I'm honest and I think the M&P sucks.

The bottle of 409 on my kitchen counter has a better trigger than ANY M&P I've shot. Every M&P trigger I've tried feels like dragging a duffle bag full of gravel down some railroad tracks. No distinct reset either. I've yet to shoot one M&P that could group worth a damn. And no, its not me. I qualify expert twice a year, thanks.

Several VERY good shots locally have had the same experiences and hate the M&P too.

Want to try a nice striker fired tupperware gun? Buy a PPQ. It has a real trigger, right out of the box. With no aftermarket parts needed. A real tack driver.

Glad the M&P works for you.

 

[retarmyaviator]

I'm serious and I don't agree with you.

I'm honest and I think the M&P sucks.

The bottle of 409 on my kitchen counter has a better trigger than ANY M&P I've shot. Every M&P trigger I've tried feels like dragging a duffle bag full of gravel down some railroad tracks. No distinct reset either. I've yet to shoot one M&P that could group worth a damn. And no, its not me. I qualify expert twice a year, thanks.

Several VERY good shots locally have had the same experiences and hate the M&P too.

Want to try a nice striker fired tupperware gun? Buy a PPQ. It has a real trigger, right out of the box. With no aftermarket parts needed. A real tack driver.

Glad the M&P works for you.

Nice to see an unbiased opinion.

 

[Fastbolt]

Nice to see an unbiased opinion.

Just because someone has a contrary or opposing opinion doesn't necessarily mean that it's biased. Really.

Besides, opinions can easily change over time. It's not like they're automatically set in stone all the time.

I work with a number of other instructors who often have different (and sometimes VERY contrary) opinions about equipment issues. No big deal. Tactics, training & mindset are the important "common ground" areas. Equipment is something over which an individual either has a choice, or not. It's still just equipment, though.

I'm a long time owner, shooter and armorer for S&W 3rd gen, as well as Glock, the Walther/S&W 99 series and the M&P pistol (among others), and I can certainly find things about all of them which I like & dislike. At the end of the day, though, it's still just an "equipment thing", and some personal preference & experience thrown into the mix. I can use any of them ... and I've actually spent my own money on a number of them.

The Walther designed 99 series does ... in my opinion ... have an excellent SA trigger. The PPQ variant has a slightly heavier trigger pull weight than the SA trigger of the AS (Anti-Stress) variant, and the "stages" of the trigger are measured a little differently, but the overall trigger travel distance is very close (you pretty much need equipment to tell the difference).

I like the Walther 99 series quite a bit, and if they ever develop plans to make a compact version of the PPQ, I'd be very interested. In the meantime, I'll keep my SW999c and continue to be very pleased with it (after more than 12K rounds fired, so far).

I tend to like the trigger of the SW999c a bit better than my compact 3rd gen guns, my M&P's and my assorted 9/.40 Glock subcompacts.

I can, however, shoot all of them passably well.

I try not to denigrate the preferences & opinions of other folks. Not my business. When I work with someone in person, I prefer to stick to working on their safe handling & manipulation, skillset & mindset. I don't really want to get mired down in the "equipment" requirements or preferences of other folks.

It's not like it's a Right/Wrong thing, you know?

 

[neorebel]

I certainly appreciate the opinions of everyone here.

Now that said I come from shooting single action revolvers when I was young and still shoot the S&W 586.

SO I may be used to the trigger pull and smoothness of it. I like the single action features of the this and many Smith and Wesson guns!

I also like shooting my Kimber Grand Raptor 1911, S&W 910, Browning Hi Power, Sig Sauer P226. ALL of them are great shooters and great combat guns if you shoot a lot and know your weapon you can shoot all well.

I do like the trigger pull of the M&P and the overtravel stop. I like being able to pull my trigger back to the position I know it starts to engage. I think it's a great feature. I shoot metal targets and the accuracy is excellent.

I haven't slow fired it on a bench yet to test its accuracy but if it is anything like the combat shooting I do I will be impressed.

BTW don't take your bottle of 409 to a gun fight.

 

[jstanfield103]

I don't own a M&P 45 as of yet. I do own a S&W 645 and also own a 1911. I Love the 45 acp, I also own a M&P shield. I will buy a M&P 45 but will wait until they put the Shield trigger in them. The Shield trigger is the best that I have felt.
Just a comment on the triggers.

 

[neorebel]

Check out this link.

Smith and Wesson M&P - PoliceLink

Thanks for your reply and honest opinion.

 

[neorebel]

We did our qualifications today. 100% on shotgun, AR, and off duty (S&W M&P 45.) 92 on the Glock.......last time I shot 100% on the Glock.....The M&P was a joy to shoot with a nice tight pattern of holes. In fact it was difficult to figure how many shots since the center was all shot out.

 

[AKAOV1MAN]

FASTBOLT; Thank you for the very rational and thought out perspective. Sometimes there are different ways of looking at things. I am not a fan of Glocks(although I have a 40/357) and absolutely hate the AK 47(probably the result of all those little brown men with AKs with knives on the end crawling around in the jungle around trying to kill me with one).
However, when it came time for me to teach a bunch of "good" Iraqis how to shoot guns, those two were absolutely the best choices. Simple and easy to learn with(G19s BTW).
I also agree with your assessment of the Walther P99 and P99c. The P99 is almost seducing me away from my long cherished BHP. The P99c is carried in what we call our "bullet bag", a bag carried in the rear or trunk with all the stuff we might need at times (larger knife, leg irons, belly chain, 100 rounds of extra ammo, batteries, a big blackjack, contact taser, extra tough gloves, and an extra P99c with 2 extra mags and a paddle holster that will fit on a vest or a belt).
Normally I pack a BHP with a 940 BUG. Carry 2 extra clips for the 940 and I can reload it (at least once) from a BHP mag. When we get into what the gubbimint calls a "multiple person close contact situation" (I wonder who paid who how much to come up with that?), I just call it a mob. I put the BHP on half cock, safety on, and keep my off hand close to the 940. I carry my BUG in my off hand pocket, and for almost half a century have always has the pocket gun in either a specially made leather pocket(usually in a heavy jacket or pocket holster in pants pocket. IMHO a pocket gun should never be packed merely in a pocket. That advice was imparted to me a looong time ago by none other than Bill Jordan. I have some of the "kids" tell me that I should get one of the new micro nine semi autos. My theory is that the BUG will be used in extremis, and I want the absolutely most reliable weapon at that time, and that means a wheelgun to me.
I have imagined the expression on the face of some impaired idiot who might get his mitts on the BHP in that condition as he tries to figure out what to do about getting it to go bang. I have trained enough so that is only adds micro seconds to my presentation.
The BHP remains my favorite 9mm, its just soooo accurate(of course shooting one for fifty years has made that possible).

 

[Fastbolt]

De nada AKAOV1MAN. The older I get, the less sure I become of everything except the basics & essentials.

I know how you feel about the increasing number of complex Gov labels (and especially their arcane selection of acronyms). Somewhere along the line, someone involved in the development of "Gov-Speak" decided there was something beneficial about making the simple things complex. Another pencil pusher, no doubt. Probably awarded the winged paperclip medal, or something.

The 940 sounds like a dandy little pocket snub for your purpose. The moonclips make for fast reloading after emptying a rapid cylinder load. (Easy to identify the pointy end of the clip under stress, too.)

I've been updating and filling out my in-service training requirements recently (since I was asked to stay active after retirement in a training capacity), and a couple of the classes I chose were the FBI's LEOKA (Law Enforcement Officers Killed & Assaulted for the non-LE folks ) and an Officer Survival & Street Tactics class taught by a 37 year veteran (and VN vet) of a major county agency.

The bottom line? It can pretty much be distilled down to "Basics, basics, basics", meaning mindset, tactics, skillset, training, practice, awareness ... and then more of the same. I've seen a dismaying number of our younger folks caught up in "equipment issues" in recent years, to the seeming exclusion of the arguably more critical priorities. Sure, equipment is important, but not to the exclusion of being able to actually use it in a timely, practical, appropriate, necessary and effective manner, right?

In the last class I was unsurprised to listen to instance and after instance ... (I stopped keeping track during the day's lecture when yet another one was described) ... where the use of a 5-shot .38 snub was effectively used as a secondary/backup to save the lives of cops. The venerable 5-shot snubs were successfully used to stop 1, 2 & 3 armed attackers, as well as attackers who had gained control of a cop's service weapon.

Sure, the 5-shot capacity is an important consideration when selecting one for a specific role. Not what I'd choose to carry as a primary service weapon (although I carried an issued 6-shot revolver for several years), and there are serious, practical opinions offered against them being employed as primary off-duty weapons.

Even so, I still carry one or another of my J's as retirement weapons, but then I understand the 5-shot limitations and make my decisions based upon my own risk assessment when it comes to when & where I'll carry one of the J's versus one of my larger capacity pistols. Also, I still tend to shoot them well enough to allow me some measure of confidence when carrying one.

Yep, my opinion is that those P99c/SW99c's are one of the most under-appreciated designs of compact pistols available. Being a long time revolver and traditional DA pistol shooter, and having had to carry one or another issued 3rd gen TDA pistol for over 20 years, I find the initial DA trigger stroke of the standard 99 design to be one of the best examples of the breed typically found around ... and the SA trigger stroke/break is stellar for a service-type weapon. (Not enough to totally make me set aside my 1911's ... or you your Browning ... but very, very serviceable for the intended purpose.)

Best,
fb

 

[4506517]

I agree with 18DAI ...... it is not the magic wand everyone wants its to be.

I've posted at length about the issues my agency has had with the gun. A couple of people have actually tried to discuss it with me in a civil manner, but the majority act as though I've insulted their mother......hence, I don't even bother to try and discuss it.

As far as unbiased, I base my opinions on what my experience with the M&P 45 has been in actually duty use, not what I've read or by CC-ing it and shooting a couple of rounds at the range. Bottom line is most guys n my agency are WAY less than thrilled with this gun.

 

[neorebel]

What have you been shooting with before this??

I personally am very happy with the ,45 M&P pistol. I also carry the Kimber Grand Raptor 1911.

I have 45 years of shooting experience and I don't give my opinions by just shooting a couple of rounds at the range.

This is a great firearm and much better than Glock....

So what is the problem they are having with the gun? All I am hearing so far is rhetoric and no information other than they don't like it...I have heard that about the 1911 as well.

I agree with 18DAI ...... it is not the magic wand everyone wants its to be.

I've posted at length about the issues my agency has had with the gun. A couple of people have actually tried to discuss it with me in a civil manner, but the majority act as though I've insulted their mother......hence, I don't even bother to try and discuss it.

As far as unbiased, I base my opinions on what my experience with the M&P 45 has been in actually duty use, not what I've read or by CC-ing it and shooting a couple of rounds at the range. Bottom line is most guys n my agency are WAY less than thrilled with this gun.

 

[Fastbolt]

I agree with 18DAI ...... it is not the magic wand everyone wants its to be.

Not sure anybody ever described it as being a magic wand.

I was prepared to dislike the introduction of yet another plastic framed, service-grade pistol when I first heard rumors about the M&P project. My initial reaction was pretty much along the lines of, "Really? Another one?"

I'd handled, fired and was even involved in some T&E of various other plastic pistols over the years. Never felt like buying a plastic .45 ACP out of the bunch of them.

I was especially disappointed by the long-awaited .45 ACP version of the SW99. I'd been hearing of the discussions between S&W and Carl Walther about even making a new frame for a 99 series pistol (especially in a caliber that Walther was apparently adamant would never see production in the Walther P99 lineup).

Once I got a SW99 in my hands for some T&E, I was somewhat disappointed by the girth of it. Granted, it fed & fired the .45 loads we tried, and ran well for quite a while with minimal maintenance, being passed around the hands of a number of shooters of various experience. It felt better than the USP, and the accuracy was almost as good ... but the cycling just felt "sproingy" (tech term ), and the grip seemed tall enough like it would accommodate a hand-and-a-half vertical grip.

I don't mean to disparage any members who own and like them. I'm glad you like them. Enjoy. It's just that I expected something a bit more streamlined and less bulky.

S&W engineers must've agreed with me, since the M&P 45 feels a lot better in my hands.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered I actually liked the M&P 45.

Up until that point I was primarily a 1911, S&W 3rd gen & Ruger KP90DC shooter, although I found the P220 & HKUSP 45 compact to be decently good service .45's, as well (just not something I wanted to spend my own money on buying).

They've been making continual revisions and improvements to the M&P pistols series, too. I've been pleasantly surprised to compare recent production models to those which have received Apex parts (and I haven't yet handled one of the M&P's with the new "trigger", what was called in-house a "LE tactical trigger" when I first heard about it several months ago).

I'm waiting to handle some new LE M&P's, probably in the next several months, and do an update/recert as an M&P armorer sometime soon (if the timing is right). I hope to find out more about the new M&P revisions, as well as the M&P Shield line at that time.

I think the 1911 is still THE .45 pistol for experienced & serious .45 shooters (call me biased, if you must) ... and the S&W 45XX & Sig P220 have earned an enviable placing as probably tied for second place.

It's just that much to my continuing surprise, I find my '08 production M&P 45 FS w/thumb safeties to be surprisingly easy to shoot at all distances, including out at 50-75 yds ... and I'm comparing it to my 1911's. & 3rd gen .45's ...

Weird, I know, but there it is ...

I certainly don't begrudge (or question) the experiences, opinions & preferences of other shooters in this regard, though. Suit yourself.

It's all about being able to actually shoot whatever it is you're using (whether required/issued or allowed as personally-owned), and doing so safely, accurately & effectively.

It's an equipment, training, practice, experience, tactics & mindset thing.

If you like some other piece of equipment than I do, it doesn't (and shouldn't) matter to me in the least, especially as a firearms instructor.

Let's talk capability with whatever equipment it is that everyone likes & uses.

 

[MP22]

I'm serious and I don't agree with you.

I'm honest and I think the M&P sucks.

The bottle of 409 on my kitchen counter has a better trigger than ANY M&P I've shot. Every M&P trigger I've tried feels like dragging a duffle bag full of gravel down some railroad tracks. No distinct reset either. I've yet to shoot one M&P that could group worth a damn. And no, its not me. I qualify expert twice a year, thanks.

Several VERY good shots locally have had the same experiences and hate the M&P too.

Want to try a nice striker fired tupperware gun? Buy a PPQ. It has a real trigger, right out of the box. With no aftermarket parts needed. A real tack driver.

Glad the M&P works for you.

Your can't be serious...right?

 

[4506517]

Fastbolt: You are actually one of the folks that actually discussed the issues with me in a civil manner and offered up solutions. I have a lot of respect for your experience and knowledge. I always enjoy reading your posts.

I am not going to rehash all the issues my agency has had, so before some of you dimiss it as "rhetoric" why don't you search my posts? Oh that's right, its just easier to dismiss it out of hand. I've carried this thing on duty for over four years.....its not my "new off duty gun". I shoot mine a lot....I qualified "expert" with a 99 day and night with it.

So before you dismiss my opinion as "hearsay" or "rhetoric" realize I have a fair amount of experience with it. It isn't my "new toy". Some of these responses and sensitivity are the reason I generally don't participate in M&P discussions. If you like it, I'm beyond thrilled for you.

 

[neorebel]

Why not rehash it so everyone knows what the problem is?

I'm not saying you're wrong......you just arn't saying anything.

Fastbolt: You are actually one of the folks that actually discussed the issues with me in a civil manner and offered up solutions. I have a lot of respect for your experience and knowledge. I always enjoy reading your posts.

I am not going to rehash all the issues my agency has had, so before some of you dimiss it as "rhetoric" why don't you search my posts? Oh that's right, its just easier to dismiss it out of hand. I've carried this thing on duty for over four years.....its not my "new off duty gun". I shoot mine a lot....I qualified "expert" with a 99 day and night with it.

So before you dismiss my opinion as "hearsay" or "rhetoric" realize I have a fair amount of experience with it. It isn't my "new toy". Some of these responses and sensitivity are the reason I generally don't participate in M&P discussions. If you like it, I'm beyond thrilled for you.

 

[(ThatGuy)]

I really do like my M&P45. I've considered selling it only because I really don't like cost of .45 ammo, but can't do it because it's such a sweet gun. The trigger is nothing to brag about, but usable. I find the trigger of the M&P45 is heavier than the other 9/40 models, but breaks cleaner. Even so it groups nice and tight for me. All in all if I have to use a .45 it's my choice (I prefer 9mm).

 

[Firefightermdc]

I like the m&p line so much I got rid of blocks and replaced them with an m&p45 (from a g21sf) and a shield 40 (g23). Yes the trigger is lacking in the 45, but much better in the shield. However both of my blocks had lwd 3.5lb trigger kits as I also found the stock glock trigger to be horrendous.
The ergonomics and customer service were the biggest deciding factors for me. The accuracy and reliability after several hundred rounds so far has been a bonus. I will wait till 500 or so rounds on the 45 until I make my final decision on the apex kit for it as I've heard the trigger gets better around this number(? Thoughts?).
Even though they won't be replacing my sigs or 1911s, the m&p line will be the only polymer pistol I care to own for a while.

 

[(ThatGuy)]

I will wait till 500 or so rounds on the 45 until I make my final decision on the apex kit for it as I've heard the trigger gets better around this number(? Thoughts?).

After about 700 rounds through my M&P9, and lots of dry practice (with snap caps), the trigger is smoother (no more grit) and a bit lighter. I need to get a trigger gauge to measure it. Sadly the over travel is still there, as well as the long and stealthy reset. Of course those can't be fixed without mechanical alteration. The important thing is I can still shoot it fine.