M&P9 M2.0 Competitor

[gsparesa]

I picked mine up yesterday. It kinda reminds me of my Walther PPK/S. Except the Walther is much better machined, whereas the Smith looks like it was cast. I do like the titanium finish on the Smith.
I was not happy with the back of the slide end play between the slide and frame. An unloaded pistol would pull the front sight to the left because the back of the slide would pull to the right. However, placing a loaded magazine into the pistol alleviated most of the end play. Before you think that I am nit-picking this issue, this pistol is a Performance Center Competitor. I also picked up a Trigicon RMR to mount on the Competitor. Using my Lyman trigger pull guage, I got a trigger pull of 4.69 lbs with a stdev of 2.10.

 

[USMC586]

Looks slick!
I get your perspective on fit and finish especially on a PC gun. Please let us know how the function is and how it performs at the range!
Please let us know how it performs at the range!
I have a side eye on one for myself.

 

[gsparesa]

Went to the range today with my Competitor without the RMR, just iron sights. I shot just 200 rounds without any stoppages. The pic below is the result of the range workout at 7 yards. The target results in the upper left of the pic, see red square, was made while shooting from a sand bag rest. Notice the spread of the bullet holes went from east to west. Since the targets are 2" in diameter, the spread is ~1" at seven yards. Could this be the result of the slide to frame slop of the Competitor? That's a 1" spread at only 7 yards. What if I'm at 25 yards, you know it will get progressively worse, may be 3.5X worse. I could drift the rear sight to the right, but the spread would still be there. That might also hide the fundamental flaw of this firearm for bulls-eye shooting. This pistol might be good enough for steel target types of competition (IPSC etc) but it sucks at bulls-eye. Why did S&W put so much slop into the frame to slide mating surfaces? Even my Glock G20 doesn't have any noticeable slop compared to this Competitor. What gives Smith and Wesson?

 

[hardluk1]

Its always tricky being a BETA Tester but you know now that . You might wear a tight fitting gloves with a Nytile coated palm and finger gloves and see if the twisting of your pistol are far more controllable for you. may be change grip insert too since you did not mention the size your using .

As a 46 year 1911 shooter when I here some one talk about "slop " between frame and slide I have to grin as that really has very little to do with group size or your left the right movement is as your shooting . Thats grip control but large random gropup sizes can be ammo as in bullet weight . WE have 3 m&ps 2 old one new and they do not shoot at there best with 115gr bullets .

If you want to be able to SEE your fixed sights then add tall factory sights found on CORE models . Those work with dot optics and Dawson has tall optic/ suppressor sight options too along with a few others .

 

[gsparesa]

I took myself out of the equation by letting the head RO bench rest test the pistol. His conclusion was the same as mine, a 1 inch spread at 7 yards. If I had access to a ransom rest that would have been preferable.
If the frame and trigger are pointed in one direction and the barrel and slide are pointed in another direction that is not conducive to bullseye precision.

I did some calculations:

• Shooting range distance to target = 21 feet or 7 yards or 6.4m
• The bullet spread size (X-axis) = 1 inch or 0.8333 feet or 25.4mm or 0.0254m.
• The angle Theta is 0.003969 radians or 0.22739 degrees.
• At 25 yards, the bullet spread will be 3.57 inches.
• At 50 yards, the bullet spread will be 7.14 inches.

NRA Precision Pistol target sizes are as follows:
At 50 yards the target is NRA B6. The bullseye diameter is 8 inches (20 cm). At 25 yards is NRA B8 target. The bullseye diameter is 5.5 inches (14 cm). Not much room for error!

 

[gsparesa]

I created a video showing the excessive end-play on the rear of the Competitor's slide. Pay particular attention to the rear of the slide and frame.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc5iV-HAfDM"]Play video Here.[/ame]

 

[hardluk1]

I guess your video shows something !! Oh well your problem most be rather limited do to the lite reply's it would seem. Not like I have not seen some vertical movement between the slide and rails over the years but never felt it was a big deal to worry about as accuracy has always been what yours looks like . But just remember If Your Going To be A BETA Tester be prepared to deal with any problems . Ha Take it up with s&w .

I unlike you I do not feel that most RO means anything special
and most times there just one more that can pull a trigger .a At 67 year old I have meet a more than a few RO's over the years that were nut'n special except for one small range manager /ro some 45 years ago .

Good luck I guess .

 

[gsparesa]

The vertical lift is one thing but my big concern is with the horizontal shift to the right. If you use your mouse and click the 0:09 time to start, you will soon see what I mean. Just keep on looping it through.

At 65, I too have seen a lot of ROs. This one is very different. Being a retired LEO and LEO trainer, he knows his stuff. He also offers classes at the range that I attend.

I have been examining this pistol in more detail. When I look down into the magazine well, everything looks plastic until you look further down and reach the trigger bar and slide. It's very interesting how S&W has assembled this pistol. What I found interesting while looking down the mag well while pulling the trigger, the trigger bar bows inward when it reaches the firing pin safety release. I then field stripped the pistol and examined the trigger bar. The bar is very flimsy and unsupported at the end where is reaches the sear. All my other striker fired pistols have a pretty tough trigger bar and is pretty well supported in the frame.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

For what is marketed as a competition-type (hence, its very name) pistol I don't thinks your performance-related concerns are unreasonable, so...

Have you contacted S&W yet?

What entity would one expect to be more knowledgeable about this product?

Cheers!

 

[Richard Simmons]

To the OP. What was your intended use for this pistol, bullseye or tactical competition? Why calculate the group size instead of actually shooting at those ranges?

 

[gsparesa]

The picture of targets in #3 of this thread only has one target that was shot from a sand bag rest. The rest of the targets were shot off hand without any aids. Some of the targets were shot in rapid fire. My concern though is the target with the red square box around it, which displays a bullet hole dispersion in the "Y" axis or horizontal axis which is about 1 inch long. Notice that there is a deflection in the "X" axis but is no where as large.

S&W markets this pistol as a "Competitor", obviously for marketing use. I would like S&W to tell us what the intended competition use of this pistol is geared towards. From the data that I obtained so far, it is not intended for NRA Precision Pistol. From what I am gathering so far, is see no advantage to having this pistol in "metal". Save your money and buy the plastic.

Many of the You Tube pistol reviewers that I watched are not what I would call precision shooters. These people are gun-slingers who are more interested in speed and accuracy and not precision. There is a difference between accuracy and precision, just Goggle it. It would be refreshing for a reviewer to review pistols precision using a Ransome rest shooting indoors at 25 yards. Just for pistol accuracy comparisons. Hey, here is an idea for another You Tube channel.

I have tried contacting S&W by online WEB contact (using my serial number) and by the phone number on their WEB site. To this date, S&W has not sent me any contact through email and I don't seem to get through using their phone number.

 

[Dave686]

If the frame and trigger are pointed in one direction and the barrel and slide are pointed in another direction that is not conducive to bullseye precision.

Well, I’ll start by saying I have been a Smith & Wesson fan boy for about 50 years. Performance Center guns use to mean something; I don’t think it does anymore. I have or have had, several M&P’s, all in .40S&W. When I wanted a dedicated target gun, I opted for the Performance Center M&P9L C.O.R.E.

It’s the worst M&P I’ve ever had. I had to replace the trigger with an Apex to make it usable as a target gun. First time I’ve ever had to put an aftermarket trigger on a handgun.

I’d be curious to see how a plain Jane fullsize M&P in your hands compared to what you bought.

But I’m not clear on what you are saying about the frame pointing off from the slide? Is that good? Probably not, especially on a PC gun you paid extra money for. But it shouldn’t make a difference unless the slide and the barrel had alignment or repeatability issues.

 

[gsparesa]

Review from "The Full Neilson"

I am glad that someone else is also having the same issues that I am having with the "Competitor". Here is a review from "The Full Neilson" which depicts the same issue that I was having with the competitor. The video he made shows a lot more than what I had posted. Goto Youtube and watch it here: Smith and Wesson Competitor 2.0 Metal Review - YouTube


Makes me wonder what the Professional reviewers like [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm1FsbI6nuc"]Jerry Muculek[/ame] and [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA2gLXT63-o"]Honest Outlaw[/ame] was looking at when they reviewed the firearm. At least with Jerry, we know S&W owns him but with the Honest Outlaw?...Hummm!

 

[gsparesa]

I made another video showing, which I think is better, showing the movement of the slide away from the frame. See it here.

Maybe all that excessive tolerance was added to the Competitor to help prevent competition stoppage failures. Precision, be damned! After the trigger is pulled, if the frame and trigger are pointed in one direction while the barrel and slide are pointed in another direction intermittently, that is not conducive to precision.

 

[Gman556]

I made another video showing, which I think is better, showing the movement of the slide away from the frame. See it here.

Maybe all that excessive tolerance was added to the Competitor to help prevent competition stoppage failures. Precision, be damned! After the trigger is pulled, if the frame and trigger are pointed in one direction while the barrel and slide are pointed in another direction intermittently, that is not conducive to precision.

My new 2.0 4.5" 9mm did exactly this, and accuracy was subpar at 25 yds even from a rest with factory ammo and my meticulously loaded handloads.

Couldn't get any better than 10-12" at 25 yds.

Bought the 2.0 because I like the grip better than others, and I thought this accuracy issue had gone away with the newer 9mm 2.0's

I got an Apex semi-fit barrel and jig the other day and after filling the fitting pad to the lower this has almost completely gone away. I have to have magnifier to see it now and it's minuscule, which tells me there is something going on with barrel to slide from the factory.

I have to get out yet to test the accuracy but I will post back here with the results.

When I get my new caliper I'm going to measure the difference between the factory and Apex and I'll also post this here.

 

[LVSteve]

I made another video showing, which I think is better, showing the movement of the slide away from the frame. See it here.

Maybe all that excessive tolerance was added to the Competitor to help prevent competition stoppage failures. Precision, be damned! After the trigger is pulled, if the frame and trigger are pointed in one direction while the barrel and slide are pointed in another direction intermittently, that is not conducive to precision.

Your video is so short that the progress line hasn't cleared by the time we get to the vital part at normal speed. I can see some movement if I go to the settings and set it to 0.25x speed. It does look odd, for sure. I suppose the key is how much the slide is moving during the lock time and if it is consistent shot to shot.

Now I'm going to have to look at my pistols to see if they do anything like yours. I know my rattle box FEG Hi Power clone does. The right side of the slide tilts up as you squeeze the trigger.

 

[Gman556]

Your video is so short that the progress line hasn't cleared by the time we get to the vital part at normal speed. I can see some movement if I go to the settings and set it to 0.25x speed. It does look odd, for sure. I suppose the key is how much the slide is moving during the lock time and if it is consistent shot to shot.

Now I'm going to have to look at my pistols to see if they do anything like yours. I know my rattle box FEG Hi Power clone does. The right side of the slide tilts up as you squeeze the trigger.

I can see it plane as day. Front of the slide moves left, and rear moves right.

If your having trouble seeing it concentrate on the rear of the slide where it meets up with the frame, and you should see it. Could be your resolution settings not being clear enough?

 

[hardluk1]

Maybe some one of you guy will at least pay more attention when you looking at a new handgun in the lgs !

 

[Farmer17]

S&W is bringing out new guns fast! I'm happy about that but if they can't test the guns well and work ALL the bugs out then they to slow the heck down.

 

[Gman556]

Maybe some one of you guy will at least pay more attention when you looking at a new handgun in the lgs !

Every single striker fired pistol I have ever owned does this to an extent.

The only pistols I've never seen do this are my hammer fired ones i.e. HK USP's HK 45s etc.

For some reason it seems to **** with the accuracy in some more than others, and in some not at all.

It's a tolerance stacking issue with striker fired pistols that has been known for quite a while due to them being designed to function reliably.

For me the worst one so far has been my M&P 9mm I mentioned above which may have been causing accuracy issues.

I'll find out 100% for sure when I get back to the range with the new apex fitted barrel.