Model 13 cylinder in a model 10?

[9245]

I have a (foreign) police surplus Model 10-6, I initially got it as a collectable but have since started carrying it for pocket carry (yes I have deep pockets, which is why my "normal" pocket carry option was not working) because it just fits very well and does not move around like my old one did (Taurus PT-111 Millennium), with or without a pocket holster (the thing liked to somehow completely flip upside down or sideways). It's not an ideal choice, I would prefer something with more capacity, but I can't deny that it just carries damn near perfect, or at least more power. In a service length barrel .38 special is not the slouch that people make it out to be but it is also not as effective as .357 magnum.

My understanding is that a production run of model 10-6s was indeed made chambered in .357 magnum and that they did function safely, which is what caused Smith and Wesson to release the model 13, which is essentially just a model 10 chambered in .357 magnum.

However I also understand that the frame of the model 13 was reinforced. My question though is can I fit a model 13 cylinder in a model 10 and is it safe to shoot full power .357 magnum +p?

I know the recoil would be unpleasant but my thinking is that aside from checking zero and reliability testing of the ammo the only time .357 magnum would be carried is for self defense and I'm not as concerned about a nasty recoil in a self defense scenario.

If .357 magnum +p were not possible what about standard pressure? If standard pressure is possible but not +p, would .357 magnum have any advantage of .38 special +p?

The ammunition used would be Underwood xtreme defender, or a hand loaded clone.

If you are wondering how that carries in my pocket, the end of the grips come to just above the rim of the pocket and are covered by my shirt, exactly were I want them to be and it does not slide back and forth or tilt, even without a pocket holster. It also does not print that I can tell and is comfortable and light enough that I don't even notice it, to the point that sometimes I nearly forget it's there before I go in to work and have to take it out. (I sadly work for an antigun company that uses manned metal detectors) Compared to my Taurus PT-111 Millennium that carries like an uncomfortable ever shifting brick, with or without a pocket holster and is slow as hell to draw, requiring me to toot around in my pocket first to find it. I have other options for belt carry, my pocket carry is a backup when I belt carry and a primary when I am not able to belt carry.

 

[murphydog]

Welcome! The cylinder and other parts (barrel, yoke) of the model 13 are different from the model 10, so it is not as easy as a simple parts swap. Unless there are financial or other restrictions (such as living somewhere where finding used guns is expensive or impossible) finding a model 13 would be easier if you are committed to carrying a 4" .357.

Also, there is no official standard for + P .357. "Standard" pressure loads in this run 45,000 psi compared to .38 Special/+ P at 17 and 21,000 psi.

Good luck in your decisions.

 

[9245]

Welcome! The cylinder and other parts (barrel, yoke) of the model 13 are different from the model 10, so it is not as easy as a simple parts swap. Unless there are financial or other restrictions (such as living somewhere where finding used guns is expensive or impossible) finding a model 13 would be easier if you are committed to carrying a 4" .357.

Also, there is no official standard for + P .357. "Standard" pressure loads in this run 45,000 psi compared to .38 Special/+ P at 17 and 21,000 psi.

Good luck in your decisions.

Thankyou.

Finding any gun seems to be an issue lately... Right along with ammunition and components, the reason I mentioned handloads is because the underwood ammunition I want has not been available for months and I don't anticipate seeing any more for at least a year at this rate, hell I can't even find primers so I am literally resorting to breaking down target rounds to get primed cases, I was fortunately able to find some bullets direct from Lehigh Defense, and I can actually get powder locally so I just need to figure out the recipe. All the local shops have are fudd guns, a few of those new AR styled shotguns, .22s, and a few random semi auto pistols, plus a few random taurus and rock island armory snub nosed revolvers and a freakish number of single action army clones. A model 13 would have to be ordered and I have not found one online and similar smith and Wesson revolvers go for $700-$800, more than I am willing to spend to switch calibers, should I buy one it would not be a model 13 but one of the 8 shots, but I am still undecided on that. I saw that replacement cylinders could be found for around $100 though, that I am willing to spend.

What about getting a spare model 10 cylinder and having a gunsmith bore it out to .357 magnum? (I say a spare because I do not want to wreck the original)

The question though is can the model 10 handle the pressure of a hot .357 magnum?

 

[steelslaver]

I have a couple of 357 made out of model 10s. In fact just recently made a 10-7 into a fake model 13 pinto. The 357 cylinders are a bit longer than 38 special cylinders and that means the model 10 barrel shanks are a bit longer. It is really easier to go with a 357 barrel and a 357 cylinder. I have not found any difference in the yokes at all, except for the short period when they put the gas ring on the yoke. If you change barrels you may have to make adjustments to the barrel shoulder to get the sights to time right and the cylinder needs to be fit to the frame barrel and yoke. There is also some variations on the front of the frame where it meets the barrel Some dash numbers are real rounded on top and some have a more broadened area. This effects the match up.
Fake model 13, If you look close you can se a tiny bit of mismatch where outside edges of the model 13 wide rib doesn't match up with the 10-7 frame,

Exact same thing happens with a heavy model 10 barrel on a round top model 10-7 frame

But you have to really look to see it. But, model10 frames function fine as 357. I firmly believe they are mechanically the same and I have never had a problem with it. I have 4 model 10s made into 357 now.

Here is my Smolt a 10-6, adjustable sights added and with a 4" Python barrel

But, the reality is unless you have your own machine tools and are willing to either make or buy specialty tools it isn't worth it.
I can spend a day in my shop tinkering away to get everything to fit for the cost of electricity and a little wear and tear on my tools. If you pay a gun Smith a bare bones $35 an hour (that would be cheap shop rates) and everything fit with no real adjustments needed, it would still take him probably 3 hours minimum to switch the barrel and cylinder and check everything. The chances everything will just go together are slim though. Cylinder to yoke tube fit usually takes a bit of adjustment, the barrel might not torque up just right. The ejector rod might be a tiny bit long. etc etc. Plus even if you get lucky and find a barrel and cylinder cheap, that still probably going to be around $150 so it don't take much to end up making a $500 gun into a $800++ gun worth $500

Sell your gun and buy a 357. Heck if you want to make a K frame 38 special into a 357 buy a J&G gunsmith special model 10-7 for $#179 plus shipping and what every your FFL guy charges to transfer and learn how to stick a 357 barrel and cylinder in it. Don't spend money making your $500 into a $500 gun.

I do it because I can, it is interesting and I learn something on every built. Plus, I already own a small lathe and milling machine and a bunch of shop tool. Joke is I probably have as much time into building little tools and jigs as I do modifying the guns.

Oh, and I have a really nice model 19-3 4" and a well used 6" plus a 5 shot J frame 357. Regular 35y are plenty for those guns. Even a factory K frame 357 isn't going like hot rod 357. That is why S&W made N frames and I don't fire hot rounds in those I own. If you need more than a "normal" 357 in them you need to step up into the 40+ caliber guns.

 

[shil]

I, a man of a thousand blunders, am no expert, but, it would seem to me that there's more than meets the eye on such a cylinder swap. Are cylinders the same length? Are frames and cylinders of Model 10s and 13s differently heat-treated? If it were me, I would leave the gun unaltered, use "suitable" ammunition, and practice bullet placement. Humbly offered.

BTW, what's a fudd gun?

 

[Hapworth]

Bottom line up front: You can successfully have virtually any modification you want made to any firearm you choose...if you drop enough time and coin into the project; the juice often isn't worth the squeeze, and generally speaking you're better off buying the gun you want rather than trying to turn the gun you have into it.

Key takeaway here: Stick with your 10-6, select a heavy .38+P load and call it good.

Yes, the 13-1 grew out of a small batch of 10-6s S&W modified for .357 Magnum for a NY law enforcement agency. I, too, have read that the 13's metallurgy is different from the 10; I have also read it isn't, and don't consider the question settled. From a production standpoint it doesn't make much sense to have two fundamentally identical frames partitioned out into one kind of heat treat versus another.

For the first couple generations of 13, the cylinder was counterbored while your 10-6 isn't; the cylinders are therefor different in length, and trying to get a counterbored 13 cylinder into your 10-6 would involve much more than a simple swap. Later 13 cylinders did away with the counterbore, but other changes were made, such as the placement of the gas ring, so other changes still would have to be made to your 10-6 to effect a fit.

It's almost too many parts and checks to be named here, but compounding parts interactions would have to be rectified by someone trained to do so and it's walking down a lot of little gremlins to -- in my opinion -- no particular good use when there are so many other turnkey options.

Never heard of .357 Magnum +P, and murphydog correctly notes the absence of an official standard for such, with the implied cautions in pursuing such a load or buying from a manufacturer claiming one.

For that matter, I'm not seeing anything from Underwood in a .357 Magnum +P, Xtreme Defender line or otherwise. Where are you getting this?

And to the question of full house magnums (or greater?) in older magnum K-frames -- it's doable, but you really don't want to do it much in order to preserve them. Modern Ks and Ls are highly recommended if you intend a steady diet of magnums (of any stripe) for training and carry.

To your question about advantages of .357 Magnum over .38 Special +P, the answers is: maybe sometimes. Unless we're talking specifics of load, specific firearm, specific shooter and specific purpose, there are too may variables to offer an easy all-purpose answer.

My advice is, if you haven't already, confirm your 10-6 is in proper working order, then select a proven .38 Special +P load for it and run it at the range to confirm reliability, shootability and point of aim to point of impact.

If your case of magnumitis doesn't pass, get a magnum gun. For your stated purposes you don't really need it, but if you must scratch the itch (and we all have at one time or another), don't endeavor to convert the 10-6, sell it or put it aside, get a proper built magnum revolver and go from there.

I see you're new to the forum -- welcome and enjoy it here, great place and a lot to learn. Be safe, have fun and good luck.

 

[Hapworth]

...BTW, what's a fudd gun?

"Fudd" is a pejorative term applied generally to older shooters more into traditional, often hunting arms and endeavors versus the generally younger, more modern, self-defense and "tactical" crowd.

For "fudd guns" think old tech: wood, blued steel, double-barrel shotguns, bolt action rifles and revolvers.

Comes from the cartoon character Elmer Fudd.

 

[Sgt911]

I, a man of a thousand blunders, am no expert, but, it would seem to me that there's more than meets the eye on such a cylinder swap. Are cylinders the same length? Are frames and cylinders of Model 10s and 13s differently heat-treated? If it were me, I would leave the gun unaltered, use "suitable" ammunition, and practice bullet placement. Humbly offered.

BTW, what's a fudd gun?

Term came around when hunters and non gun enthusiast, mainly using traditional style firearms like bolt action riles, double barrel shotguns' for hunting and revolvers for self defense were labeled "Fudds". They gave no thought of the 2nd amendment restriction pushes like the AWB of 94 because it didn't affect them and you didn't need AR15s and the like. They looked and sounded like Elmer Fudd carrying his old DB shotgun. So any weapon of basic technology and function used by that perceived group is labeled "Fudd Gun"

Ahh beat, and by a person who used the word "pejorative". Curses!

 

[steelslaver]

I guess I am a Fudd gunner, Mostly revolvers, bolt guns, doubles and pumps.

Old school, "fire power if fine, but accuracy is final".

Does using the word "pejorative" say college education? LOL

 

[BB57]

Term came around when hunters and non gun enthusiast, mainly using traditional style firearms like bolt action riles, double barrel shotguns' for hunting and revolvers for self defense were labeled "Fudds". They gave no thought of the 2nd amendment restriction pushes like the AWB of 94 because it didn't affect them and you didn't need AR15s and the like. They looked and sounded like Elmer Fudd carrying his old DB shotgun. So any weapon of basic technology and function used by that perceived group is labeled "Fudd Gun"

Ahh beat, and by a person who used the word "pejorative". Curses!

I'm well rounded as I have and shoot both.

Looking back however, 1994 was a big year in the split between the "Fudd" and "EBR" (evil black rifle) crowds. Not only didn't the Fudds show any real concern for what happened to assault rifles, the majority Fudd membered NRA did a deal to support the 1994 AWB in exchange for protections of hunting rights for the Fudds.

To be fair, AR-15 sales prior to the 1994 AWB were on the order 10,000 rifle per year and EBR owners were pretty small minority in the big picture. Ironically it was the 1994 AWB that made AR-15s and similar military style semi-auto rifles extremely popular.

Now, post ban, there are around 16 million of them in the US, and sales will top 1.5 million per year in the average election year where fears of a new ban may arise.

There's a great deal of irony in that and it has changed NRA politics. When I was stationed in the DC area I'd go to the NRA range in Fairfax about once every week or two. I'd do it on a weekday, going to Fairfax from Arlington opposite the rush hour traffic, shoot for an hour, do breakfast in their cafeteria, go through the museum and head home after the inbound DC traffic had died down.

Almost all the rifle shooters I saw at the NRA range were shooting EBRs. This was around 2007-2010, - a huge shift since the passage of 1994 AWB and it's sundown in 2004.

In turn the NRA changed its position to reflect the change in numbers. That's not all good either as the NRA has taken a pretty extreme stance rejecting some very common sense gun ownership ideas like providing background checks for private sales, or ensuring guns not on your person are properly secured to make them harder to access by children and prohibited individuals. After all Sandy Hook would have never happened if a gun owner with a mentally ill son had kept her firearms properly secured in her home. Common sense would go a long way toward promoting gun owners as responsible people - and it would benefit both the Fudds and the EBR crowd.

I'd also prefer to see the gun lobby in general focusing on facts, such as military style semi auto rifles being responsible for less than 0.1% of all homicides. Between 2007 and 2017 there were 173 people killed in "mass shootings" involving military style semi autos. That's an average of 17.3 per year, compared to an average of around 1700 people per year killed with knives. It's also 20% to 30% smaller than the number of people killed with fists or blunt objects.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Back in the late 1960's to mid-1970's there were gunsmiths offering rechambering services to convert .38 Special revolvers to .357 magnum, a relatively simple modification using a chambering reamer. I remember seeing several Model 10 and some Colt Official Police revolvers with this modification. The numbers I saw were relatively few but enough to know that this was at least considered as an option by some people.

I don't recall hearing of any specific problems, but with such a small sampling to consider that must be taken as anecdotal at best, not definitive proof of the concept as a safe or wise practice.

Personally, if I were a gunsmith offering services to the general public I would never consider performing such work. Too many warning bells, warning flags, and liability lawyers looking for paydays. I doubt that even a written, signed, witnessed, notarized disclaimer and waiver of liability would provide enough protection at the courthouse.

 

[9245]

Me too, am Fudd gunner, old school and like it!

There's nothing wrong in liking the old stuff, I used the term as a descriptor.

As other's have pointed out, the term fudd has come to refer to the "gun owners" who would sell us all out and support the antigunners as long as they can keep their deer rifle, revolver, and double barrel shotgun. Of course what they don't realize is that is only until their deer rifle gets labeled a "high powered sniper rifle," their revolver gets called a "dirty hairy death machine," and their shotgun a "street sweeper." Only then there will be no one else to defend them.

Fudd gun just refers to the types of guns the fudds think are "acceptable" and "all you need." To me it means boring cookie cutter bolt action "deer rifles" (I also use the term remchesters to describe those because they all seem the same to me), double barrel shotguns (especially over and unders), and ridiculously long barreled pump action shot guns with only like 3 round tubes.

 

[Art Doc]

Sell what you have and buy what you want.

Should be the 11th Commandment.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Ahh beat, and by a person who used the word "pejorative". Curses!

Does using the word "pejorative" say college education?

One is not so much marked by his use of the term "pejorative" as by his pronunciation of it.

 

[9245]

I have a couple of 357 made out of model 10s. In fact just recently made a 10-7 into a fake model 13 pinto. The 357 cylinders are a bit longer than 38 special cylinders and that means the model 10 barrel shanks are a bit longer. It is really easier to go with a 357 barrel and a 357 cylinder. I have not found any difference in the yokes at all, except for the short period when they put the gas ring on the yoke. If you change barrels you may have to make adjustments to the barrel shoulder to get the sights to time right and the cylinder needs to be fit to the frame barrel and yoke. There is also some variations on the front of the frame where it meets the barrel Some dash numbers are real rounded on top and some have a more broadened area. This effects the match up.
Fake model 13, If you look close you can se a tiny bit of mismatch where outside edges of the model 13 wide rib doesn't match up with the 10-7 frame,

Exact same thing happens with a heavy model 10 barrel on a round top model 10-7 frame

But you have to really look to see it. But, model10 frames function fine as 357. I firmly believe they are mechanically the same and I have never had a problem with it. I have 4 model 10s made into 357 now.

Here is my Smolt a 10-6, adjustable sights added and with a 4" Python barrel

But, the reality is unless you have your own machine tools and are willing to either make or buy specialty tools it isn't worth it.
I can spend a day in my shop tinkering away to get everything to fit for the cost of electricity and a little wear and tear on my tools. If you pay a gun Smith a bare bones $35 an hour (that would be cheap shop rates) and everything fit with no real adjustments needed, it would still take him probably 3 hours minimum to switch the barrel and cylinder and check everything. The chances everything will just go together are slim though. Cylinder to yoke tube fit usually takes a bit of adjustment, the barrel might not torque up just right. The ejector rod might be a tiny bit long. etc etc. Plus even if you get lucky and find a barrel and cylinder cheap, that still probably going to be around $150 so it don't take much to end up making a $500 gun into a $800++ gun worth $500

Sell your gun and buy a 357. Heck if you want to make a K frame 38 special into a 357 buy a J&G gunsmith special model 10-7 for $#179 plus shipping and what every your FFL guy charges to transfer and learn how to stick a 357 barrel and cylinder in it. Don't spend money making your $500 into a $500 gun.

I do it because I can, it is interesting and I learn something on every built. Plus, I already own a small lathe and milling machine and a bunch of shop tool. Joke is I probably have as much time into building little tools and jigs as I do modifying the guns.

Oh, and I have a really nice model 19-3 4" and a well used 6" plus a 5 shot J frame 357. Regular 35y are plenty for those guns. Even a factory K frame 357 isn't going like hot rod 357. That is why S&W made N frames and I don't fire hot rounds in those I own. If you need more than a "normal" 357 in them you need to step up into the 40+ caliber guns.

Oo, I think you may cost me money at j&g lol I lack tools or know how though, so I will have to check what the gunsmith would charge to see if one of those will be worth building, hell I might even get 2, one to convert and one to build in to a restored 10-7.

 

[steelslaver]

Oo, I think you may cost me money at j&g lol I lack tools or know how though, so I will have to check what the gunsmith would charge to see if one of those will be worth building, hell I might even get 2, one to convert and one to build in to a restored 10-7.

2? I am just putting the finishing touches on#6

See the gunsmith section on my 327 Federal project

I have finished the fake 13, the heavy barrel 38 special the Smolt, a fixed sight 327 mag and one into a model model 15 clone.

 

[9245]

2? I am just putting the finishing touches on#6

See the gunsmith section on my 327 Federal project

I have finished the fake 13, the heavy barrel 38 special the Smolt, a fixed sight 327 mag and one into a model model 15 clone.

On second thought, the gunsmithing isn't too bad, he quoted about 2 hours at $60 an hour to install a barrel however they will not do the rechambering, or reblueing, they recommended another place for the reblueing and they quoted $350! Just for the reblue.

 

[Dieseltech56]

I know I've posted it here before but here is my 10-8 round butt that I converted into a 3" 357 using a parts kit from a 13-3

Like said before I would pair a barrel with a cylinder rather than trying to cut down a 38 special barrel face to fit a 357 cylinder which is longer.

I have a little over $500 in this gun

I'm not trying to be a jerk but saying sell what you have and buy what you want doesn't work anymore. Especially when 3" barrel guns are doubling the price of the same models in other barrel lengths. (A NIB 13-4 three inch just sold for over $1200)

If you have a mechanical ability and are willing to invest in tools you can use multiple times you can definitely switch barrels and build more desirable guns for cheaper than they cost to buy.

 

[BB57]

There's nothing wrong in liking the old stuff, I used the term as a descriptor.

As other's have pointed out, the term fudd has come to refer to the "gun owners" who would sell us all out and support the antigunners as long as they can keep their deer rifle, revolver, and double barrel shotgun. Of course what they don't realize is that is only until their deer rifle gets labeled a "high powered sniper rifle," their revolver gets called a "dirty hairy death machine," and their shotgun a "street sweeper." Only then there will be no one else to defend them.

Fudd gun just refers to the types of guns the fudds think are "acceptable" and "all you need." .../

/...

Exactly. Banning "assault weapons" is just the target of the moment, but the signs where it would go after that are already evident.

One of the big talking points for the anti-assault weapon crowd is how "devastating" that .223 round is when it hits someone. Yes, it'll do a lot more damage that a 9mm FMJ, and even more than a well designed 9mm hollow point. But...it is far less destructive than just about every other centerfire rifle round larger than .224" when a soft point bullet is used.

It'll be a two pronged attack. FMJs will be banned after the ATF caves to pressure to define them as "armor piercing". (Those of us old enough to remember Reagan and his "cop killer bullet" rant resulted in legislation that literally did just that, before it was rolled back to focus on teflon coated pistol bullets, etc.)

Soft points will then be targeted because because they expand and create "devastating" wounds.

Accuracy and range will also come into question just as soon as the cheese slides of the cracker of some long range shooter (the University of Texas tower shooting, redux) and he shoots people with a "sniper rifle".

It'll follow then that because most game animals are killed at 150 yards or less, and no more than about 3 MOA accuracy is required anything longer ranged or more accurate than that will be termed a "sniper rifle" and they'll want to ban them.

That *might* leave lever guns like the venerable Winchester 94 and Marlin 336 in 30-30. But eventually someone will comment on the rate of fire with a lever gun after someone uses one in a crime.

That'll leave us all with 12 ga and 20 ga slug guns - as long as they are single shot break open types as eventually even Elmer Fudd's double barrel will be seen as being more than he needs for hunting wabbits.

 

[GerSan69]

Hey 9245, welcome to the S&W Forum. Lots of very knowledgeable people who will put you through the ringer when you ask about a project like this, but it's for your own good. Kind of like tough love, only over the internet.
I'm also a big fan of parts swaps, but unlike Steelslaver, I don't do my own machining. I've been very lucky to have found a like-minded gunsmith who won't charge an arm and a leg to put my ideas into action. Sounds like you may have found one. Good.
I may have missed it, but does your "return" frame have a barrel, and is it a heavy-barrel frame? By that I mean no taper at the front end of the frame, like you'd see on a 2" or tapered barrel Model 10.
Next, see if you can find a .357 cylinder. There's a place called everygunpart.com that currently has 40% off on certain S&W "parts kits," which is what they call a demilled (cut-up) firearm. These include a cylinder and yoke, both necessary for your swap. They also include barrels, so if you don't have one, this might be the ticket. (Since these kits aren't considered a "firearm" by ATF, you can receive them directly, so no FFL transfer fees.)
Lastly, if you do decide to cut your barrel, keep in mind that will cause the roll marks to be off-kilter. If you're OCD like me, that's not acceptable! So plan on barrel refinishing (or having the lettering removed altogether) with a cut barrel.
Over the years, I've probably had a dozen or more guns re-configured one way or another. Not too long ago, I had a Model 10 put together exactly like what you want, although it was entirely by accident, as documented in another thread that I offer here for your amusement: "New" .357 Model 10
Best of luck with your project. A good reconfiguring job won't increase the resale value of your gun, but the personal satisfaction of such a gun can be priceless if you love how it turns out. Be sure to show us some photos when it's done!