Model 38 question

[gubber7181]

Hi,
Iv been looking for a decent .38 for a while and found one today for a decent price. Says Mod 38 on it. It has the Pinned barrel so im guessing around 1980. had a little holster wear not to bad.
so I do plan to conceal carry it.
My question is, what would be a good recommended off the shelf ammo for an older snub nose? im sure the +P ammo is to much pressure, but i also want to make sure i get enough velocity that id get good penetration and still have the bullet do its part.
My cousin in NYC was with the NYPD he said they used lead hollow points. but I just want something that's safe as well.

 

[Model19man]

I would not hesitate to use + P ammo in a Model 38 - the alloy frame Model 12 and 37 are the ones I would be worried about.

 

[gubber7181]

I would not hesitate to use + P ammo in a Model 38 - the alloy frame Model 12 and 37 are the ones I would be worried about.

Thank's for your reply. That does make sense, I will be practicing with it at the range and I like to practice with the ammo I carry,
My cousin mentioned Winchester, He said that was the standard ammo they used.
Iv been reading 158gr is what they tend to shoot best with, but like any sidearm, I will have to try a few different brands to see which prints best.
I am aware a 2" barrel will not have the accuracy that a 4'-5' will have. My back up pistol for hunting here in FL is a 4" Ruger .357 loaded with buffalo bore hardcast.

 

[snuf]

Load it with plain old wadcutters and call it good.

 

[Alk8944]

Hi,
Iv been looking for a decent .38 for a while and found one today for a decent price. Says Mod 38 on it. It has the Pinned barrel so im guessing around 1980. had a little holster wear not to bad.
so I do plan to conceal carry it.
My question is, what would be a good recommended off the shelf ammo for an older snub nose? im sure the +P ammo is to much pressure, but i also want to make sure i get enough velocity that id get good penetration and still have the bullet do its part.
My cousin in NYC was with the NYPD he said they used lead hollow points. but I just want something that's safe as well.

First, any commercial .38 Special ammunition is acceptable for your gun. +P is not particularly high pressure, just higher than standard pressure by approximately 10%. There is no +P ammunition made by any major manufacturer that will do the slightest bit of harm to any steel framed S&W revolver.

Second, Age of firearms is relative and not an issue. Guns do not lose strength or functionality in any way as a result of age! Over the past ca. 75 years the steels used by S&W and the basic designs have not significantly changed. A gun made by S&W in 1950 is just as strong and capable, possibly more so, than any gun made just yesterday, so your gun is not OLD!

So far as +P ammunition is concerned the principal reason to not shoot it much is simply cost. The second reason is in small frame guns like your M-38 is recoil, +P can be painful to shoot if you are at all sensitive. For these two reasons alone it is prudent to shoot standard pressure loads, but +P will do no harm. Shoot all the standard loads you want and carry +P in the gun when you carry it for defensive purposes as it can be somewhat more effective.

Finally, there is absolutely no reason to shoot your carry ammunition for practice, this is a fallacy. Shoot ammunition of the same or close bullet weight as your carry ammo so that it will shoot to the same point-of-aim and feel like your carry ammo and save your money! A standard pressure .38 wad-cutter can be as effective for self defense as any jacketed hollow point premium ammunition. At legitimate ranges where use of deadly force can be justified, several feet to a few yards, group size and POI and POA mean absolutely nothing! I can guarantee that you will never feel the recoil, hear the gun go off, or even know how many rounds you fire if you ever need to use your gun defensively! Ask any of the former/current LEOs on the forum and they will tell you the same thing!

 

[robertrwalsh]

I am reminded of an incident that occurred in CA many years ago when the CHP still carried .357 revolvers. The officer involved happened to be a female and I don't know that that had anything to do with anything. She was recently out of the academy and was involved in a shots fired incident. All of the shooting they had done at the academy was with .38 special wadcutters. She opened up with her Highway Patrolman and full power .357 ammo, fired one shot and dumped the gun. She stated afterwards that she thought the gun had malfunctioned and blown up. There is something to be said for the notion of doing at least some of your serious practice with actual duty-carry ammo. I know I do that by the simple expedient of shooting up my actual carry ammo once per year, thereby rotating it. The ammo you actually carry on you will be the most beat-up ammo you own. That is the stuff that gets handled, slammed around during loading and unloading and rained on. It works for me. Your experience may vary.

 

[gubber7181]

I am reminded of an incident that occurred in CA many years ago when the CHP still carried .357 revolvers. The officer involved happened to be a female and I don't know that that had anything to do with anything. She was recently out of the academy and was involved in a shots fired incident. All of the shooting they had done at the academy was with .38 special wadcutters. She opened up with her Highway Patrolman and full power .357 ammo, fired one shot and dumped the gun. She stated afterwards that she thought the gun had malfunctioned and blown up. There is something to be said for the notion of doing at least some of your serious practice with actual duty-carry ammo. I know I do that by the simple expedient of shooting up my actual carry ammo once per year, thereby rotating it. The ammo you actually carry on you will be the most beat-up ammo you own. That is the stuff that gets handled, slammed around during loading and unloading and rained on. It works for me. Your experience may vary.

Sup buddy
Thanks for your reply. So I agree with what you said completely about the training thing. But at the same usually the cadets were really just taught how to use and qualify with there duty pistol.
And the departments would use wad cutters for because they print well. But yeah she should of been a little better prepared.
So the NYPD actually issued .357 till the mid 90s
Then they everyone out of the academy was issued autos well the peeps that had some time on the job were actually giving an option to keep the .357 or trade ln for an auto.
I remember when I was a kid seeing they all looked like the duke,
Big gunbelt with the revolver hanging down, speed loader pouch's in the front. Now all my buddys who are on the job are carrying the Glock 19s.
Anyway, I really just bought it cuz im a fan of the .38
I like the way it shoots, low recoil. And I just want something small for carry.
And this might sound dumb but Iv carried a few autos, my first handgun after I moved down from NYC was a shield 9.
Then I tried to do a colt commander yeahhh NO. Then a CZ 75
Great gun but a little to heavy for my use and printed through my shirt to much. And so here with the m38.
I will definitely be picking up an auto but for work the .38 will do nicely.

 

[Frailer]

I would not hesitate to use + P ammo in a Model 38 - the alloy frame Model 12 and 37 are the ones I would be worried about.

The Model 38 also has an alloy frame.

 

[gubber7181]

The Model 38 also has an alloy frame.

Are you sure thats an alloy frame?

 

[K Harris]

Yep, alloy frame. Wadcutters are the way to go with the older alloy j frames.

 

[bobsguns]

A standard pressure .38 wad-cutter can be as effective for self defense as any jacketed hollow point premium ammunition.

I'm going to politely disagree there.

As much as I love shooting wadcutters, no way would they be effective in (say) shooting through car door glass, metal doors of any type or some large (think FAT) thug intent on doing one harm.

Penetration is the name of the game with SD ammo, IMO. A super fat thug wearing a winter coat simply will not allow adaquate penetration with wadcutters.

My .o2

 

[SuperMan]

Model 38s are alloy...the same gun in steel is the Model 49...

Since the max "safe" velocity one is going to get out of a 2" .38 is well less than 900 fps, HPs of any kind are a waste...

I have a M38 and M649... The 649 gets Buffalo Bore +P 158 HP at 1050 fps from a 2". The M38 gets the Lost River .38 standard pressure wadcutters...

Bob

 

[bobsguns]

Thank's for your reply. That does make sense, I will be practicing with it at the range and I like to practice with the ammo I carry,

Hornady seems to be the Big Dog in SD ammo these days. They make a variety of bullet types as well as weights, so you can find which is most accurate to your specific gun. They also make ammo specific to snub nosed pistols.

It is a good idea to run at least a cylinder full of carry rds every time you hit the range. It'll remind you of the recoil & point-of-impact difference in your practice ammo versus carry ammo.

My .o2

 

[Retired W4]

Off the shelf? Well maybe many years ago, I've not shot any through my 38/49/649. Maybe some of our elder LEO's have experience with this stuff. Two totally different 200 grain bullets and Western called theirs the Super Police. I suppose I should run some through my old Bodyguards.

 

[Drm50]

No +P in the m38 and m37 old models. Standard 158gr 38sp will do fine.
I like the M38 because you can cock it without having completely exposed spur hammer.

 

[gubber7181]

So one thing I will state is im in Florida and even in the winter it doesn't get cold enough for winter coats.
Im just looking for a standard load that wont cause stress or cracking. If wad cutters are the way to go im down.
This is only the second S&W iv owned, the other was a police trade in M15 I believe.

 

[erikpolcrack]

Model 38, alloy; Model 49, steel.

 

[Jim Watson]

My Model 38 gets the 135 gr Gold Dot Short Barrel. But it doesn't get many of them, it is +P. Practice is with whatever standard .38 is handy.

 

[Kanewpadle]

My opinion only.

Wadcutters are the way to go. Penetration is the name of the game. Expansion is a very distant second.

Handguns are incapable of causing a significant amount of hydrostatic shock, temporary or permanent wound cavity blah blah blah. If those things are desired, use a long gun.

Wadcutters are highly recommended by those in the know. People you never heard of that have studied or performed hundreds if not thousands of autopsies. They are experts in wound ballistics.

And it is highly unlikely that you will find yourself shooting through any type of hard or soft barrier.

If you carry spare ammo, carry hollow points. Wadcutters can be difficult to load quickly with a speed loader or speed strip. And yes, carry spare ammo.

Practice a lot. Use good judgement. Have a high level of situational awareness.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Shootings involving private citizens are very often substantially different than those involving cops. Cops deliberately go in harms way. Private citizens SHOULD avoid situations if possible. Very few private citizens are going to need to shoot thru safety glass or a car door in self defense. Rather more cops might need to in order to apprehend a suspect. You can always come up with that weird situation if you look hard enough or "what if" hard enough. You should, however, spend most of your training effort on what might reasonably occur. Cops have shot bad guys with a handgun at 100 yards successfully. You should not spend a ton of money or training time on this remote possibility. Shot placement is criteria number one. Adequate penetration is criteria number two. EVERYTHING ELSE is an almost academic criteria number three.

 

[gubber7181]

My opinion only.

Wadcutters are the way to go. Penetration is the name of the game. Expansion is a very distant second.

Handguns are incapable of causing a significant amount of hydrostatic shock, temporary or permanent wound cavity blah blah blah. If those things are desired, use a long gun.

Wadcutters are highly recommended by those in the know. People you never heard of that have studied or performed hundreds if not thousands of autopsies. They are experts in wound ballistics.

And it is highly unlikely that you will find yourself shooting through any type of hard or soft barrier.

If you carry spare ammo, carry hollow points. Wadcutters can be difficult to load quickly with a speed loader or speed strip. And yes, carry spare ammo.

Practice a lot. Use good judgement. Have a high level of situational awareness.

Yeah I was watching some videos on the wadcutters. It seems like there pretty decent.

 

[ken158]

I would not hesitate to use + P ammo in a Model 38 - the alloy frame Model 12 and 37 are the ones I would be worried about.

Your model 38 has an alloy frame same as the 12 and 37 - actually identical to the 37 expect for the hammer shroud. Any extra velocity you would gain with +P will be negligible in your 2" gun. The WW 158 HP your relative spoke of is a good round. I actually carry it in my models 37 and 642.

 

[Jim Watson]

Unfortunately, all you can get now is Midrange Wadcutters, listed 710-750 fps, usually less in a 2" revolver, or the alleged standard pressure high performance wadcutter from Buffalo Bore at 860 in a 2", over 1000 in a 4".

I don't know of anybody making the old Peters Service Wadcutter, 860 fps in a 6" barrel. Less in a short barrel but more than midrange and not as hard a kicker as the BB. Too bad. Easily handloaded if you want to.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Long Post Warning. Read at your own risk!

Greetings and congratulations on your new revolver!
Long post warning!
Please correct me anyone. I hope for and welcome correction though I may sound like I think I know what I am talking about. Thanks!

I love my Model 38!
(That statement means flat nothing as I love every smith, so...)

You may have heard all the rumors about frame cracking with the Airweight pistols, and I want to set your mind at ease. I researched the issue extensively and learned an awful lot about how and why gun people come to believe unsupported statements about guns, but that is another post for another day.

You will hear that a certain frame crack happens an awful lot with the Model 38, but I could never get any reliable data or anything more than some interesting occasional anecdotes. There is a brother on our forum here who posted in some detail about his M38 frame crack. I have similar difficulty researching un-commanded discharges with the Sig P320, and Glock 10mm pistols exploding because of an "unsupported chamber".

If something is happening often enough to be a concern, then we ought to be able to explain why from specifics of the design and operation of the tool. If we can understand correctly, we can modify training and maintenance to alleviate the concern. The science ought to explain it and it ought to be repeatable.

The questionable usual explanations:
-Over torquing the barrel? S&W did find that for some undisclosed number of guns during a certain period, the early 80's, they had some assembler(s) doing that and they stopped it. You should check your gun. It will be obvious if the front sight is not straight up and down. There is no fix for it. Just carry it and shoot it and when it cracks get another! Nobody proved that the cracked Airweights actually did have an over torqued barrel.
-It is not meant to be shot? I would love to see a statement from S&W saying that they are deliberately selling a gun with which you cannot practice. I did confirm that most of them sit in the drawer for decades without ever being shot (just like every other gun).
- Shooting hot ammo? Mas Ayoob had a Model 38, and he shot so many +p rounds through it that he sent it twice to a gunsmith to have the frame straightened! No cracks ever, but I can explain below.
-There are so many of them? The idea is that all guns fail but we don't care, or we don't pay attention until we own one of them. There are so many of these little guns out there that when one of them cracks we all sit up and pay attention. Just like buying a Subaru All Wheel Drive, now you see them everywhere. If you Google "handgun frame cracks" you will see a plethora of articles involving every make and every model gun.

Because of the very consistent appearance in the photos of these cracks, I came to the conclusion that there is a better theory.
The Theory:
Smith made the little Bodyguard Airweight with a steel barrel and cylinder on an aluminum frame. It is supposed to make it stronger but creates our problem in that the aluminum alloy handles heat expansion differently than steel does. Aluminum dissipates heat 15 times faster than steel. The barrel collar is shrinking while the barrel is still fat. The frame pops open just like the buttons on your shirt when you devour too much beer and pizza at once. I learned this from someone who spoke to a lady design engineer in the employ of S&W, or so he said, who knows. Sorry I never got her name.

The Work Around Strategies:
-Add a little scandium to the frame alloy. Works beautifully! Shoot yours until it cracks, then buy a 340PD.
-Practice with the all-steel M49 but carry the M38. Great idea, a reason to buy another gun. Maybe even the wife will accept this excuse!
-Limit to one cylinder of shooting at a time. This is what Mas does. He pulls it from his left pocket and runs it empty, 5 rounds, then drops it and pulls his sidearm with his other hand. He never experienced the crack because he never got the gun very hot shooting this way. He never deliberately limited his shooting mind you, rather he had a practice regimen which worked for him and the little gun never let him down. Your first cold run is the only one that counts anyway.
-Keep shooting it after it cracks. Oh horrors! BrianD, how could you?! One writer noticed his crack while cleaning it. He had no way to know how many rounds ago it cracked because it still shot just great. He then put another 100 rounds through it by the time he wrote his post :-o He thought the group was maybe not as tight as before. (!?) You do this at your own risk. I am not a doctor and nothing I write here is intended to be taken as medical advice. Please consult your own shooting professional before attempting, etc. etc.
-Keep carrying it after it cracks? Well OK just don't practice with it. It probably will still do the job for one more cylinder. There are no reported cracks from dry fire practice.

I will look forward to anyone's comments and corrections.
Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[Model19man]

Your model 38 has an alloy frame same as the 12 and 37 - actually identical to the 37 expect for the hammer shroud. Any extra velocity you would gain with +P will be negligible in your 2" gun. The WW 158 HP your relative spoke of is a good round. I actually carry it in my models 37 and 642.

I had no idea - I only use WW full wadcutters in my Model 37. They no longer make them but I got two boxes at a gun show for cheap years ago. They work very well.

 

[K Harris]

No arguments here Brian. I still only shoot standard pressure rounds from mine. With the long list of police officers, surgeons, medical examiners and ballistic gel testers claiming that the lowly wadcutter is a highly effective self defense round, I see no reason to look elsewhere except for the reload.

It is very like the old fashion 158 grain +P lead, semi-wadcutter hollow point. It compares very favorably to any of the more modern projectiles from a 3" or longer barrel. It is what is loaded in the 4" K Frame sitting on the nightstand.

 

[Tom 1951]

I had an old nickel plated Model 49 that I carried with wadcutters; I handloaded hollow based wadcutters backwards. I don't know if that mattered at all, but those cartridges sure looked wicked. They were backed up by two reloads of standard pressure hollow points. As already stated, the wadcutters are almost impossible to quickly reload.
I sold that gun when I switched to 9mm for carry. That was a mistake. I'd love to have it back.
One trick I was told by an old-timer was, if carrying a speed strip, load it with 2 space 3. The spacing made it a little easier to load two cartridges at a time, rather than in singles. (I liked the strips since they were less noticeable than round speed loaders.)

 

[gmborkovic]

If you are worried your pocket carry gun will be harmed by hot ammo,
dont carry that gun, or shoot it and throw the gun away.

 

[gubber7181]

If you are worried your pocket carry gun will be harmed by hot ammo,
dont carry that gun, or shoot it and throw the gun away.

No I actually have no intention of using hot loads, I just wanted to know the appropriate ammo for it being its an older modal. Iv actually read up quite a bit on the whole do or dont use +P in these. Iv never carried a snub nose. Im jus going to buy some standard pressure wad cutters.
If I wanted to shoot hot loads id just buy another 9mm.

 

[gmborkovic]

Now you are talking. Carry a 9MM ASP.