Need to repair damaged rear sight on S&W Model 17-5

[mikemyers]

Mike , I fixed S/Ws for 20 years and changed a lot of rear sight blades/slides whatever you want to call them to accommodate for taller front sights and changes in sights on target revolvers. The rear sight assembly is pretty tricky, depending on the model, when they were made , if they are bent, the sight body, not the blade you have to straighten that out. Then it has to be staked properly with the right tools. Generally you are taught to always start with a new adjustment screw etc. Anyway trying to talk someone through it on the computer is just not going to work. Believe me it can be frustrating to someone that has been trained and does it regularly. If you want to study how SW revolvers work buy the Kuhnhausen Revolver manual from Brownells. I can understand wanting to fix it yourself, But you are starting on a hard project to begin. The 17-5 is a nice gun if you are still having problems with the rear sight on your gun PM me your address and I will be glad to send you a rear sight assembly for your gun. You will need a set of mini-screwdrivers, I like the Husky brand you can get at Loews or any other that has the blades in the handle and spins. Will send new mounting screw for the sight tang also.
Put the frame or your revolver in a vise, so its setting level and wont move,padded jaws best. Slide the elevation stud into the slot/keyway until its all the way forward , and the hole in the tang lines up with the hole in the frame. The tang will be curved up from the frame( thats normal) push it down with your thumb or finger, and start the screw into the tang with your fingers , once its secured by several threads you can let the tang up and finish with the screwdriver. I try to get the screw down as far as I can before I let the tang up. Then just adjust the sight as you need to. Let me know, Glad to help..

Thank you once again for all the information. I replaced the too-low rear sight blade with what I think is the correct part, test it to see if it was close, then struggled (STRUGGLED) to get the microscopic screw and plunger in, so the click-stops work. After an hour, all was fine. I took it to the range and sighted it in, and now the gun works nicely with a sub-6-o'clock hold. Using a rest, I get roughly a one inch group, and I can get a decent group shooting normally.

I plan to take the gun to the range again, and try it at 50 yards. Hopefully my sub-6-o'clock sight picture will work the same, or do I need to adjust the sight every time I go back and forth between 25 and 15.

I now feel very comfortable with this gun, as if it fits me as well as I fit it. I'm much more confident shooting it. Thank you for all the advice, and everyone else too!!!!!

 

[CALREB]

Mike I dont really understand the sub 6 oclock hold thing. Is that to hit center of the bullseye or whatever you are aiming at. Aiming at a 6oclock hold is still supposed to hit center. If you are sighted in for a 6 oclock hold. If your rear sight is adjusted all the way down and you are still hitting high so you are forced to aim below where you want to aim then something is wrong. Choices are, a shorter front sight (change it or file it down) raises the muzzle enough to aim where you want to, or get a taller rear sight blade , which again makes you raise the muzzle to acquire a proper sight alignment. Other than that, eye problems can cause this situation, or improper alignment, BUT if you dont have this problem with similar guns then it is probably the sights. If you already have a .146 rear now next one is .160 I think.

Most people just aim a little higher to shoot a pistol at 50 yards that is sighted in at 25. Or put the front sight where you normally do and then drop the rear sight down a bit. This way you dont cover your target . Lastly, If you are sighted in at 25 you can figure out how many clicks up to adjust your sight to hit center at 50, it wont be many, depending on ammo, if you are sighted in at 25. But yes you will need to lower your sight again, if you move back to 25 yards.

 

[mikemyers]

There are two ways to aim. One is to aim at a point. The other is to center your "wobble" over that point, without thinking about hitting it. Keep the wobble centered, and concentrate on your trigger release. That is called "Area Aiming". For a good explanation, read here:

Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol

My explanation:

• 
  When using open sights, if you aim at the center of the bull, you are aiming at a point.
  
  If you prefer area aiming (as I do now), you are not aiming at a point, and will likely create a group of holes around the bullseye, based on the size of your wobble.
  
  If you aim at a point, most shooters are almost certain to hit anywhere except that point. (Not good.)
  
  If you use a 6-o'clock hold, and are aiming at the bottom of the black bull where it meets the white paper, you are still aiming at a point. (Not good.)
  
  Instead if you aim at a white area below that black bull, you will be using area aiming as there is no point to aim at, and should do as well as your ability to hold allows.

Most people, myself included, thought the goal was to aim for the center of the bullseye. As Dave predicted, I got a donut of holes all around the bullseye, with none hitting it. When I tried Dave's suggestion, I got a group of holes, with most clustered around the center of my aim, and gradually tapering off as the distance away from that point increased. My scores instantly improved.

This is just as true for open sights as it is for using a red dot sight.

(If you get so good that the holes appear exactly where you are aiming, every time, then maybe you shouldn't change what you're doing now..... but if you see a "donut" of holes surrounding the center of the bull, this technique is for you.)

 

[CALREB]

Mike, Ive never heard of area aiming unless you are shooting artillery. Since the point of most competitive shooting is to hit a point/place on the target/ repetitively, I would think it would be hard to maintain that by aiming at a blank area. Or to use that technique you would need to reference the target/point with some part of your vision. I dont see how using that technique a shooter would ever develop the ability to shrink a group down to where you want it to be. I have heard/used that technique, usually during a dry firing practice, to aid new shooters to concentrate on their sight alignment and pressing the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment.

From what I have been told most shooters used 6 oclock hold for bullseye shooting because it allows you to see your sights clearly against the white portion of the target and maintain a fixed point of aim while concentrating on your front sight. In my sport the targets were all black so we applied carbide smoke to the sights to make them a darker black that you could pick out against the black background, again referenced to whatever your aiming point was. Some shooters used the X in the center or the top or bottom of the X ring, so they wouldn't be disturbed by seeing the holes appear as you shot. This was for 25 yards and in, at 50 yards most adjusted their sights to use some sort of head or neck hold which dropped the bullets into the 10 ring. At any time there was still a definite point of aim.

Everybody wobbles/ EVERYBODY, to some degree. The best shooters just wobble less in some cases way less than others. The trick is to not let that bother you or rule when you press the trigger. And to learn to trust your eyes to hold a much better center (tighter wobble) than you might think and not disturb anything with your trigger press, or follow through. This is not easy to do strength, respiration, stance, and much practice to hold anything decent especially at some distance.
But different things work for different people, so do what you feel works for you. I thought your pistol wouldn't adjust for you to aim at your target. As long as its shooting where you are aiming your good to go. Good luck..

 

[mikemyers]

If you're involved in Bullseye Shooting, "area aiming" is the single thing that improved my targets and scores more than anything else. When Dave told me this, I was thinking "that's stupid, how can you hit something if you're not aiming at it???" .....but now I realize Dave was spot on.

You might enjoy this link:
Area Aiming.


It's not good for everything, but it is worth its weight in gold for getting better targets and scores in Bullseye. It may not apply at all in other forms of shooting. You certainly wouldn't use it if you were trying to become the next Annie Oakley, throwing coins up in the air and shooting them.

Area Aiming is for both red dot sights and steel sights.

Sub-6-o'clock-hold is only for steel sights, and even then, it's more challenging than using a red dot sight.

It may not be easy to align the sights on the white paper below the bull for steel sights, but it's better than aligning those black sights on a black bull if you use center-aim.

Area aiming means centering your "wobble" over the center of the target, and accept the results. Until your wobble gets smaller, your scores won't improve, but with area aiming you should get a much higher score than if you're aiming at the exact center of the bull.

If you get really good, it won't make any difference, because your wobble will then be tiny.

 

[mikemyers]

........The rear sight assembly is pretty tricky, depending on the model, when they were made , if they are bent, the sight body, not the blade you have to straighten that out. Then it has to be staked properly with the right tools. Generally you are taught to always start with a new adjustment screw etc. ......Glad to help..

Caleb, my best guess is that the frame is bent, and the rear sight is now reasonably correct. The only obvious issues are that while shooting, when the "frame" is vertical, the whole sight assembly is tilted to the left, so naturally the sight blade needs to be adjusted to the right.

Despite that, after replacing the low sight blade with the proper sight blade, I can now shoot the gun pretty well. It's precise, feels good in my hand(s), and I'm dry-firing it every day, several times a day, using snap caps of course.

I'm beginning to think I should leave well enough alone, and stop trying to make it better. There is a small chance that my friend at S&W will take it back to correct it, but if I can shoot it well anyway, I'm debating if I should bother.

(If you could send me an email address in a PM, I can send you the relevant photos in a couple of weeks. I need to re-take the photos, now that I've made the changes to the rear sight. If you still think my rear sight is at fault, I would very much like to get a replacement from you, but if you agree the problem is the frame, not the sight, I guess that changes everything.)

I will send you a PM when I've finished the new photos.

 

[mikemyers]

Mike, Ive never heard of area aiming unless you are shooting artillery. Since the point of most competitive shooting is to hit a point/place on the target/ repetitively, I would think it would be hard to maintain that by aiming at a blank area. Or to use that technique you would need to reference the target/point with some part of your vision. I dont see how using that technique a shooter would ever develop the ability to shrink a group down to where you want it to be. I have heard/used that technique, usually during a dry firing practice, to aid new shooters to concentrate on their sight alignment and pressing the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment.........

As of a few minutes ago, the gun is back together again, a new sight blade is installed, and it sits securely in the sight assembly without wobbling. The locking nut is tightened, but not yet staked. Here's a list of things that got done, and the reasoning:

The sight that was previously in the gun for sub-6-o'clock sighting was 0.140" tall. Now that I've changed to center hold, the holes on the target were high.

For testing yesterday, I temporarily installed a 0.108" sight blade, and it was now possible to adjust the elevation. Holes were centered around the bullseye, with the sight adjusted for center aiming.

With my eyes, after cataract surgery, and wearing glasses that were a prescription to see the front sight 30" in front of my eyes, the front sight is reasonably sharp, and the target is a blur. I checked at the range, and the exact distance from my eye to the front sight on a S&W Model 17-5 is 26 3/4", meaning I might get a new pair of glasses.

In my testing yesterday, the grouping was too large. I replaced the fancy set of Nill stocks with the original S&W stocks, which provide a better grip of my gun. Lots more dry-fire to follow.

I took things apart an hour or so ago, and re-installed the rear sight blade. I followed the instructions that came with the Brownell two-pronged tool to fit the slotted nut.

I removed the sight blade assembly, and tightened the adjusting screw until the hole for the spring and plunger was just below the extreme right end of the sight blade. I slid the sight blade assembly back into the sight fixture on the gun. Then it was a matter of doing three things simultaneously:

• Pushing the plunger/spring into the hole in the adjusting screw,
• Pushing on a very short screwdriver inserted in the screw slot, which pushes the sight blade assembly to the left, and
• Tightening the screwdriver as the plunger dropped to clear the sight blade.

It sounds easy, but it wasn't.

To answer your question, area aiming means to center your wobble zone over the bullseye, and concentrate on trigger control, and NOT concentrate on the spot you want to hit.

• Trying to hit the bullseye, for most people, will result in a donut of holes all around the bullseye, with none in the middle.
  
• Area aiming will result in a group of holes, with the majority of them clustered near the center of the group.

When I write this, or say it in person, people look at me like I've lost my senses - as in how will I ever hit the bullseye if I'm not aiming for it. I can elaborate if you wish.

......but you already know this: You wrote:
Everybody wobbles/ EVERYBODY, to some degree. The best shooters just wobble less in some cases way less than others. The trick is to not let that bother you or rule when you press the trigger. And to learn to trust your eyes to hold a much better center (tighter wobble) than you might think and not disturb anything with your trigger press, or follow through.

Area Aiming just means centering your WOBBLE over the bullseye, and not trying to actually hit it. Based on a person's wobble, this will be the best they are capable of.

 

[Retired W4]

After reading this three year old thread I wondered why it was never flagged and moved to the Smithing section.

 

[mikemyers]

If you think it would be helpful there, please let the appropriate people know. I didn't know there even was a "Smithing Section".

As for my Model 17-5, it is finished, and I think it shoots properly. It is sighted in, and I'm getting used to it again.

One of my "issues" is the sight design - the open sights on my 1911 pistols are much larger, and easier for me to adjust precisely as I'm shooting, but I accept that this is a limitation of my eyes, not the gun.


Thank you to everyone here who has helped. With the much lower sight blade, everything works fine for "center hold".

 

[glenwolde]

You might like these if you're replacing the rear sight. I do. They install just like a regular blade. The white outlines are almost as useless as the red ramp front sight to me.

Smith Wesson Rear Sight Blade K L N

 

[mikemyers]

It looks like a very interesting concept, and the price is reasonable.

I'm also afraid that on my gun, they might look out of place, as my rear sight blade is adjusted almost as far to the right as it can go. I have no idea why, but that's the right setting if I want to hit "the bullseye".

I agree about white outlines - just distractions. My 17-5 has an all black front sight, no orange, but my Model 28 has the orange. For me, I don't think the orange does anything useful.

It says on the page the installation "the blade should be installed by a skilled Pistolsmith".

Thanks for the idea, but I think I'm going to leave it "stock".

 

[Greyman50]

Sight alignment, trigger control, breathing and Reducing ones Minimum Arc of Movement should be developed. A very simple training exercise is taping a piece of white cardboard to door, find a #2 lead pencil that fits down barrel to breech face( best on 1911's). Stand so inserted pencil is about 1"-3/4" from cardboard. Obtain your stance, follow above and " fire" pistol. Once you have a dot from first readjust your aim to the dot. " Fire at the dot for 5- 10 times. Look at the dots from your firing, will tell you what you are doing right or wrong. BTW, you need to know what patterns mean .