New Model 29 - is canted barrel "normal"

[Mulefoot]

Gun was shipped out early evening yesterday,i included the "kiss" style note with picture inserted so they should be very clear of my concern
"sportsterguy"very well said,i used it word for word"
Thanks everybody! I will post the outcome as soon as i know!
Sorry if i high jacked this thread.

 

[Jitterbug]

While shopping for a new $800+ (out the door price) 4" 629, I was looking at one of the latest models, the gun had absolutely the very nicest SA trigger I've ever squeezed, but there was a huge gap between the bottom lug and frame, I passed on the gun and decided I have to be able to handle the gun before purchase...I was considering ordering online to save up to $100.00, I figured what the heck it's a Smith they'll all be perfect and if not the factory will take care of it on their dime.

A "canted barrel" or a huge gap, you have to be kidding me, this might be acceptable to some but I'll pass Thank you, and S&W quality just slipped a notch in my opinion.

I'm not an expert or gunsmith, I just want what I paid for and I expect quality and pride of workmanship from Smith and Wesson, otherwise I'd just pick up a Taurus, it makes me wonder what else they over looked in quality control.

I was expecting more out of the new plant in Maine with the new equipment.

I currently own a newer M&P9c and a 442, I have no complaints both are very nice guns, in the past 50 years I've owned a few other Smiths, all were exceptionally nice firearms, this is my expectation of S&W.

Make all the excuses you want, I expect better and would be really upset if the factory doesn't bend over backwards to make it right.

A crooked front site is acceptable? What are you guy's drinking?

 

[John Eilertson]

I've owned several handguns, mostly Smiths, and none of them, including the fixed sighted, had canted barrels. Curious to me that their employee would have said that to you originally. That simply CANNOT be their standard policy. Glad you're now happy with it.

 

[Snapping Twig]

IIRC, the proper term is "clocked".

I've had several example dating back to the late 80's. In each case I sent them back through the gunshop where I bought them.

I've had good and bad experiences but in each case I just said it's clocked, I don't like it, please make it right - I paid too much to accept anything other than a straight barrel.

Now they are all fixed and life is good.

Stick to your guns, S&W will take care of you.

If you shoot lead, ask Vito to run the 11 degree forcing cone die for you, it will shoot lead better, or so it is said.

 

[Sparrowbird]

I got to thinking about this post. I have seen a few with canted barrels but they were all 6inch and 8 3/8 barrels. I have never seen a short barrel canted. Not saying it don't happen, just never seen one.

 

[Sportsterguy]

Gun was shipped out early evening yesterday,i included the "kiss" style note with picture inserted so they should be very clear of my concern
"sportsterguy"very well said,i used it word for word"
Thanks everybody! I will post the outcome as soon as i know!
Sorry if i high jacked this thread.

Good for you. Please let us know if S&W fixed this Discrepency on your revolver. I'd hound them till they made it right.

 

[traub]

Canted Front Sight

In a previous reply to this thread, I mentioned that I purchased a 629-4 with a 6 1/2 inch barrel with the power port. After shooting it, I noticed that the front sight was leaning to the left as a result of the barrel being turned in too far.

I decided to call Smith & Wesson customer service, and they recommended that I send the gun in for repair.

From the time I sent it to Smith & Wesson, until the time I received it back repaired, was a total of 9 days. They repaired the gun under warrenty. They told me that Smith & Wessons made from 1989 on, have a lifetime warrenty.

I was very impressed with the short amount of time it took for the repair which included the mailing time. A total of 9 days.

 

[marlin58]

a barrel should never be anything but true straight...you got took!

 

[yooperpat]

I noticed that the barrel was canted slightly on a new 442 about 2 years ago. The gun would not shoot to POA. I called the factory. S&W said to send it in. They straightened it out. Shoots to POA now.

 

[Joe in SC]

I've never had a S&W with a canted bbl. That wouldn't wash with me. I'd send that gun back. What in the hell does the person you spoke with think the adjustable sights are for??? This is probably OK for a troubled fixed sight gun, but not for one with adjustables. Stuff like this is exactly why I don't buy current production stuff. I've seen too much bad quality slip by their QC to be just a slip-up. They've lowered their standards. I'll stay with the older stuff.

 

[alde]

Would the clocked barrel not also affect the lockup of the crane? One of the points of lockup is the front of the ejector rod and if it's out of position then the crane would not lock tight. There would be side to side movement.

 

[weaverman]

I wondered the same!

I have a 586 "M" gun, and the barrel isn't clocked perfectly. The error is such that the rear sight blade has to be almost fully to the right for POA=POI.

Since the cylinder crane isn't locked in place on the same axis as the barrel or the crane pivot, how can alignment between the cylinder bores and the barrel NOT be affected?? I have a gun that doesn't hit consistently (about a 4" pattern at 20 yds.), and the hand is worn causing the timing to be off. I haven't owned the gun from new, but visually it doesn't appear to have seen all that much use. The timing and lockup are much worse than my pre-Model 10. I think there could be an interaction between these two problems.

Comments?

 

[scooter123]

Recently it seems that S&W is shipping revolvers with the barrel overclocked. I have a 610-3 that is just slightly overclocked I purchased in 2009 and a new 625 JM text fired August 10, 2011 that required adjusting the rear sight 2 clicks shy of it's leftmost limit to zero the sighting.

IMO the front latch has enough "slop" between the latch and ejector rod that a barrel would have to be VERY VERY out of alignment for it to have any effect on lockup. I've checked my 625 to see if the front latch might bind up the ejector or fail to latch and it's just doesn't happen, it latches in like all my other S&W revolvers.

I expect that if you look closely at your 586 you'll find the yoke is fully closed when your front latch locks in. So, in that respect your cocked barrel isn't an issue. However, with your rear sight at it's limit of travel I would have it corrected on any gun covered under the warranty. Unfortunately, in your case the warranty won't apply, so you'll have to decide if you want to pay a gunsmith to do this.

 

[weaverman]

Barrel torque?

Does anyone know the specified torque of the barrel?

Also, anyone know a specified "end shake" limit? This gun measures about .0035", so it seems like a .002" spacer/bushing would be a good thing to add. The max clearance between the barrel and cylinder is .008", and that won't change any with the addition of the bushing, if I understand correctly.

 

[weaverman]

Ah hah!

I think I see the problem with this 586! There are no extractor pins in the cylinder! Without them, the action of the hand against the extractor face is poorly transmitted to the cylinder. There is quite a bit of radial clearance between the ejector rod and the cylinder.

I see that Numrich lists the pins as "out of stock". And Brownells doesn't show them at all. Anybody got a source for these? I imagine they are just (small) dowel pins - anyone have the dimensions?

 

[Road Rat]

Let me see if I understand this:

Smith & Wesson purposely turns the barrels too far to the left to get the revolver to shoot to POI.

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard!!!

Poor quality control does not happen...it is lazy workmanship!!!!!!!!

I would insist on them taking it back and making it right.

The oldest American gun company putting out poor quality products is not to be condoned!

 

[Stregavet]

Cant/Clocking issues persist in 2012

The last date on this thread is almost a year old, but I hope those folks who have taken the time to make such ardent and spirited comments are still monitoring this issue.

My brand new 617-6 10 shot (~$800) came with a canted barrel. I shot 230 MiniMags through it but was not able to sight it in to my satisfaction - rear sight was adjusted max.

The rear sight blade was loose, it spit a lot of lead, and some extraction was difficult. I sent it back to the factory and got the following comments:

Replaced rear sight. (Yea!)
Cut forcing cone. (Probably Yea!)
Replaced cylinder. (Yea ?)
Adjusted barrel alignment. (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot) Look at the photos of my newly repaired and realigned S&W revolver.

I really want to love this gun, but it is getting harder all the time. Now I have to wrangle with Customer Service again and probably listen to the "within spec" chatter that many of you have experienced. I will call Customer Service on Monday - and let you know what happens. Thanks to your comments on this forum I won't feel like the only one who will not tolerate a crooked barrel.

What has happened to American excellence in manufacture? Has the pursuit of profit eaten all of our pride?

 

[shawn mccarver]

With fixed sight revolvers there were two common ways to correct windage errors.

The quick way : bend the front sight blade - especially on the thin front sights like on single actions)

The harder way : turn the barrel slightly : harder to do but at least the sight was perpendicular to the barrel.

You forgot the lead babbitt way used by S&W and its armorers for decades! It is painful to watch, but really works!

 

[winchester94]

683 p 3" with canted barrel

I have a new 686 plus 3" that has a canted barrel. It will be going back to S&W. Why do they allow this stuff out of the factory?

 

[Cruiser RN]

I got a Model 36 with a severly canted barrel.Off it went to S+W where there were vice marks and a note on the gun saying it was adjusted to factory specs.When test firing after 25 rounds the barrel recanted so badly I couldn't engage the ejector rod into the frame.Off it went again and it came back with the same adjusted to specs letter.When I called I asked what exactly they did to the gun.The Customer service rep said "This time they changed the barrel".NIce to know they didn't do this the first time.Anyway this time the gun was fixed....Mike

 

[Coaltminer]

I currently have 2 revolvers, a 581, barrel is in alignment, a 29 Classic with barrel canted left. The rear sight adjustment can compensate for it. It's a 4". Got a great trigger and timing is spot on, is very accurate. I've decided to live with it.

 

[Camster]

I don't think it's "normal" but lately,it seems to be the "norm".
It's one thing to put a bit of a cant on a fixed sight model(though aren't most SAAs adjusted with a hard rap of the barrel?),but on an adjustable sight model,if it can't be dialed in with the adjustments,I see a problem with how the gun was made.

 

[Nick B]

The last date on this thread is almost a year old, but I hope those folks who have taken the time to make such ardent and spirited comments are still monitoring this issue.

My brand new 617-6 10 shot (~$800) came with a canted barrel. I shot 230 MiniMags through it but was not able to sight it in to my satisfaction - rear sight was adjusted max.

The rear sight blade was loose, it spit a lot of lead, and some extraction was difficult. I sent it back to the factory and got the following comments:

Replaced rear sight. (Yea!)
Cut forcing cone. (Probably Yea!)
Replaced cylinder. (Yea ?)
Adjusted barrel alignment. (Whiskey Tango Foxtrot) Look at the photos of my newly repaired and realigned S&W revolver.

I really want to love this gun, but it is getting harder all the time. Now I have to wrangle with Customer Service again and probably listen to the "within spec" chatter that many of you have experienced. I will call Customer Service on Monday - and let you know what happens. Thanks to your comments on this forum I won't feel like the only one who will not tolerate a crooked barrel.

What has happened to American excellence in manufacture? Has the pursuit of profit eaten all of our pride?

That second pic looks good to me .

 

[rodsvet]

Shoddy workmanship. If the barrel was machined (rifled) incorrectly, it should never have been put on the frame. On a bolt action rifle with no sights, it makes no difference, on a S&W handgun, it shouldn't be canted. There are fewer and fewer true gun craftsman every year.

 

[Triggernosis]

To me, a canted front sight was (and is) unacceptable. It is not a matter of "looks" or "appearance." A canted front sight has a negative effect on sight alignment and sight picture. The front sight needs to be vertical in order to have a parallel strip of light on either side of the front sight when looking through the rear. If you don't have that, precision is difficult. The top of the front sight won't be level either, and that is also a problem.

IMHO, the factory is giving the OP a snow job because they don't want to take the time and expense to do it right.

+1 on that.

 

[Billy M.]

I also have a smith with a crooked barrel. My model 66, which I purchased new. The front sight on mine is straight up and down, however, and it SHOOTS! I have a real old (5 screw) K38 with an off set hammer and a bent firing (hammer nose) firing pin, won't shoot worth a poop. The old ones have enough hand fitting in them, if you look hard enough, there will probably be somethng wrong. My heavy barrel square butt model 10 is my second most accurate handgun, I haven't even given it a good visual critique in enough years to know its flaws, reguardless, I'll keep it.

 

[BillyMagg]

I would advise you to spend a bit of time shooting it from a benchrest to see if the sights will zero properly.

BTW, in benchrest shooting it's best to rest your hands on a sandbag, this will allow you to nearly duplicate your recoil management when shooting offhand. In addition, any revolver with a one piece barrel should always be shot with the barrel free of any contact with a support, supporting the barrel will impede it's "ring" and just destroy group size. The only exception to this rule are the 22 caliber revolvers, the barrel is so massive in relation to the power of the caliber that it's basically inert.

If you can get the sights to zero properly, there isn't any point in sending it in, S&W will only say it's within specification and send it back to you. As for the appearance, it's a HANDGUN, not some work of Art. It's meant to fire bullets accuratey, not become some object that you spend all your time looking at.

Yeah, I find this quest for perfection a bit baffling at times. However, I suspect that somewhere out there someone is underneath their automobile waxing the exhaust system because they ran through a puddle and if they found the muffler cocked by 1/2 a degree they'd probably want to return the whole car. Bottomline, if it bother you that much, don't look at it, just go out and shoot the gun.

Detroit Auto worker Huh? Guvmint Motors? If I didn't look at my guns, I would buy Rugers,,,but my Smiths, they better be purty at the prices I pay. I did buy a 629 Classic Hunter once in an ice storm, I noticed the rear sight was canted to the right, but assumed the sight was bent? I had a 627 at home so took it anyway, should have said no. Replaced the sight still canted to the right, called Smith, oh thats not likely, OK! Sent it in, well we tried to fix it, [milled improperly], but we really messed it up, and had to replace the frame, worst crane to frame fit I have ever seen on a Smith and Wesson. It was brand spankin new, took it back to my dealer and traded for a used 29 Classic DX, it remains to this day one of the most beautifull accurate revolvers I ever owned. My shooting partner, and best friend hounded me until I traded him for a Colt Combat Commander, so if anyone has a 29 Classic DX for sale or trade pm me. I expect outstanding quality from my Smiths, yes I have been dissapointed in the last few years, but when I pick up an old Smith, hand fit by the Master Gun Smiths of the past, now that is ART WORK. That front sight is engineered to stand straight up at 0 degrees, if it doesn't thats poor "execution". If you aren't cursed with an "eye", then you won't notice it, and it will be good enough for guvment work.

Now your advice about shooting is what its all about, but we all expect better from Smith and Wesson, don't we fellas? Billy

 

[BillyMagg]

Canted barrels from the factory have always been present. Less years ago, then more prevalent in the 70's and later. I used to see them frequently. In every case, the rear sight had to be adjusted quite a bit to one side or the other to compensate. Usually, the barrel wasn't turned up enough, but occasionally it would be turned too far. I corrected many of them, and preferred the ones that needed to be turned up more, for several reasons. Once corrected, the rear sight could always be used near the center of the adjustment range.

To me, a canted front sight was (and is) unacceptable. It is not a matter of "looks" or "appearance." A canted front sight has a negative effect on sight alignment and sight picture. The front sight needs to be vertical in order to have a parallel strip of light on either side of the front sight when looking through the rear. If you don't have that, precision is difficult. The top of the front sight won't be level either, and that is also a problem.

IMHO, the factory is giving the OP a snow job because they don't want to take the time and expense to do it right.

"Amen"! and that all important sight picture is critical to longer range shooting, when bullet drop becomes a factor, and yes I do shoot all my handguns at over 50 yds most of the time. Billy

 

[Magster]

With perfectly aligned barrel and sights, one only need be concered with bullet drop at various distances appropriate for handguns. Any cant to the barrel or sights introduces lateral indescrepances of POI at various distances. My 629 Classic 6 1/2 barrel has perfect alignment and is my primary hunting revolver. I can hit 6in. plates at a hundred yards all day as long as I have a steady rest. This gun will also shoot, with slight adjustment of vertical hold, accurately at 25, 50 or 75yds. My sights are adjusted for 50yds. I would not use this gun to hunt with if there was any misalignment. I can take deer at 100yds only because I know my revolver is spot on. The rest is up to me.

 

[BigBill]

I guess i'll be looking closer at my new S&W N Frame revolvers before i purchase them. So far my 3 new ones look ok.

This tells me that the CNC machined parts won't go together without a gunsmith fitting them properly. Is the barrel off to one side or canted? If its off to one side its off the centerline of the frame too. If its canted its not fully on center too.