New to 10MM - Questions and Extraction Issue

[TercGen]

Like many folks here I added some new guns to the collection during quarantine, and finally popped my 10mm cherry with a 1066, followed recently by a 1006. No deals on either one, but since I'd already purchased some newly-assembled 10mm mags, it seemed like the next logical step.

Stocked up on ammo and broke the 1066 down to give it a good cleaning, as it was in pretty sorry shape. Replaced a number of smaller springs that were fairly well rusted, put a new factory recoil spring and one-piece guide rod in, swapped in some MIM components for a smoother trigger, and waited for the shooting ranges to open up.

First day at the range I had an absolute blast with the 1066, she was softer-shooting than expected and ate a few boxes of Blazer Brass 180g FMJ no problems. Then I tested out a small number of Underwood rounds, and everything went off without a hitch until I fired a 150g XTP (the hottest round I had). It apparently had a FTE, as the fired case was still in the chamber and the next round was stovepiped against it, caught under the slide. In all honesty, this was the first FTE that I had experienced with a handgun, and am not sure how normal it is for the next round to be caught under the slide.

So, my guess is that, in light of the poor condition of some of the other springs in this gun, the extractor spring may need to be replaced. Extractor itself is not apparently damaged. What are your thoughts on this, fellow forumites?

The other question I had was do most folks use factory recoil springs on their S&W 10mm's? I do on all of my other 3rd Gens, but 10mm is a bit stronger than the other calibers I own, and that Underwood 150g is HOT!

Any help and opinions are appreciated, Thanks!

 

[JohnHL]

I have only used the factory recoil spring in my 1006.

If it only happened once with the Underwood 150g, it may just be an anomaly.

If it repeats with the Underwood 150g, then you know what to do because you said it, examine the extractor hook and spring.

John

 

[stansdds]

There is always the possibility that you had one piece of brass with an undersized rim. That happened to me decades ago with a Model 39-2, the only failure that pistol ever suffered. Case still in the chamber, next round jammed against the ramp and unextracted case. That case rim measured a few thousandths of an inch under the diameter of the other cases in that box of factory ammo.


Examine the extractor hook for damage, either rounded and worn edges or chipped edges. Also, make sure the extractor cut in the slide is clean. I once had a pilot version 4506 that would not extract, the extractor cut was packed full of debris and residue.

 

[Frank Black]

Like many folks here I added some new guns to the collection during quarantine, and finally popped my 10mm cherry with a 1066, followed recently by a 1006. No deals on either one, but since I'd already purchased some newly-assembled 10mm mags, it seemed like the next logical step.

Stocked up on ammo and broke the 1066 down to give it a good cleaning, as it was in pretty sorry shape. Replaced a number of smaller springs that were fairly well rusted, put a new factory recoil spring and one-piece guide rod in, swapped in some MIM components for a smoother trigger, and waited for the shooting ranges to open up.
First day at the range I had an absolute blast with the 1066, she was softer-shooting than expected and ate a few boxes of Blazer Brass 180g FMJ no problems. Then I tested out a small number of Underwood rounds, and everything went off without a hitch until I fired a 150g XTP (the hottest round I had). It apparently had a FTE, as the fired case was still in the chamber and the next round was stovepiped against it, caught under the slide. In all honesty, this was the first FTE that I had experienced with a handgun, and am not sure how normal it is for the next round to be caught under the slide.
So, my guess is that, in light of the poor condition of some of the other springs in this gun, the extractor spring may need to be replaced. Extractor itself is not apparently damaged. What are your thoughts on this, fellow forumites?
The other question I had was do most folks use factory recoil springs on their S&W 10mm's? I do on all of my other 3rd Gens, but 10mm is a bit stronger than the other calibers I own, and that Underwood 150g is HOT!

Simplest and easiest thing to do first - after thoroughly cleaning your 1066 - is to replace the factory recoil and fp springs with XP springs from Wolff. Same with the mag springs. Swap in XPs. I did all that to my 1006 and 1076, and they've both run without a hitch.

Then get back to the range and test it again with full-power, 'Sonny-Crockett' loads. Remember, any 10mm pistol can look good shooting the .40-level wussified stuff.

In 10mm-Landia, what separates the real 10mm pistols from the unreliable wannabes is the ability to consistently digest high-performance ammo or handloads.

 

[TercGen]

Thanks for all the responses so far, now I wish I would have kept the case to check the rim on it. Underwood ammo uses brand new starline brass and I have found their loadings to be top-quality so far, but anything is possible and there are no guarantees.

If this round was just an anomaly, it still shakes my faith in the reliability of this pistol with the hot loads. After some more research, it would appear that the hot 10mm loads do produce extraction issues across the spectrum of many manufacturers' pistols, including when these S&W 10mm's were still being serviced and produced, even with new factory extractor springs.

A careful look at my 1066 extractor shows no sign of damage or rounded edges, so I believe the spring is what I will upgrade. Plan on placing an order with Wolff for some XP extractor springs, and will likely get a few XP recoil springs as well.

Simplest and easiest thing to do first - after thoroughly cleaning your 1066 - is to replace the factory recoil and fp springs with XP springs from Wolff. Same with the mag springs. Swap in XPs. I did all that to my 1006 and 1076, and they've both run without a hitch.

Then get back to the range and test it again with full-power, 'Sonny-Crockett' loads. Remember, any 10mm pistol can look good shooting the .40-level wussified stuff.

In 10mm-Landia, what separates the real 10mm pistols from the unreliable wannabes is the ability to consistently digest high-performance ammo or handloads.

Frank, could you elaborate on what power XP recoil springs work well with both your 1006 and 1076?

Many Thanks,

-TercGen

 

[BMCM]

I had a discussion a few years ago with one of the long time gunsmiths at S&W. When they had a 10xx showing troublesome extraction issues the fix was to bump up the spring force on the extractor to right at 8lb.

This is assumes the extractor has been correctly fitted to the gun in the first place. And, there is no junk or fouling underneath the extractor that may limit inward reach or how much of a bite it can get on the case rim.

Keep in mind the extractor is a fitted part that is adjusted and gauged individuality to a particular slide. If it was not entirely fitted properly then that can result in occasional extraction faults.

S&W did produce a "heavy" extractor spring for the 10/45 guns but sometime even that was not sufficient to get the spring up where it needs to be and correct the fault condition. So the master smiths at S&W resorted to shimming under the extractor spring in those cases to get the force right at the upper limit of the factory specified range and that corrected the extraction fault problem. Some degree of variation in the depth the spring bore as machined on the slides is a factor. if a particular slide the came off the mill where the bore housing the extractor spring is a merely few thousandths deeper that it should be, then the spring is unable to exert enough force on the extractor tail for the gun to run reliably.

A dial force instrument with a specially modified hook is used to evaluate extractor spring force. This particular 10mm had troublesome extraction issues until I set the spring force right at the maximum permissible level measured at the first moment of deflection. Ran like a sewing machine ever since.

I have a bag of the Wolff XP extractor springs. Having tested them in several different guns I've found they are no stronger than the factory #10202 spring and often times measures weaker than a factory spring. They remain unused in the bin.

Also, XP recoil springs I strongly do not recommend. Stay with the factory #89524 part as long as you can still get them. XP recoil springs only serve to increase peining and battering the locking lugs undergo as the breech slams into battery much faster & harder than it was designed to.

Consider also...It may be that your particular 1066 may just not like hot-rod loads with light bullets Stranger things have happened.

Cheers
Bill

 

[TercGen]

Thanks for the great info Bill, most of the posts on the subject that I found were by you, and it's good to get your current thoughts on this. It's quickly dawning on me that 10mm is not just another caliber to casually add to the arsenal, but a whole new ballgame, and I have much to learn.

I normally do use the factory recoil springs with my 3rd Gens, and I think I'll stick with them for my 10mm's. Glad to get your feedback on the Wolff extractor springs before I ordered them. I did just receive a handful of S&W factory extractor springs (102020000) which I will use instead.

My 1066 was obviously neglected/submerged in water at some point before I bought it, and I'm guessing that the extractor spring is likely in as rusted of condition as many of the other springs I replaced. No doubt I could just sell off my 155g ammo and simply avoid that loading in the future, but that would feel too much like quitting right off the bat. These S&W 10mm's have a reputation of being able to handle the hot stuff, and I certainly want to see if I can get mine up to that level.

I feel pretty good about the process of replacing this spring, though it will be my first attempt, and if it all goes to hell, I'll have some more work for you.

BTW, did you miss my email about the 1006 guide rod and chipped extractor? It was from just before the 4th holiday, so may have got lost in the shuffle. I'll shoot you another one tonight.

Thanks,
-TercGen

 

[BMCM]

Yup missed that... Things are seemingly filtered & routed to the junkmail folder randomly at the server level. Unless I log onto the server and look through he junk folder I never see the stuff on my local mail client. Pretty damn annoying... Especially so when folks are trying to get a hold of me and it seems I'm ignoring them

email incoming...

Cheers
Bill

 

[Walter Rego]

Bill, I have a Wolff 18 lb recoil spring in my 1006. I try to only fire full power loads in it, I have no desire to shoot .40 S&W level loads in it.
Is 18 lbs too strong ? It has been 100% functional with that weight spring so far.

 

[BMCM]

Bill, I have a Wolff 18 lb recoil spring in my 1006. I try to only fire full power loads in it, I have no desire to shoot .40 S&W level loads in it.
Is 18 lbs too strong ? It has been 100% functional with that weight spring so far.

Well, I will point out the 1006 was engineered in a time when 40S&W did not yet exist. There was nothing available but full power 10mm Auto ammunition to shoot in it. And it was engineered to function with the 201610000 spring.

There's a delicate three way balancing act going on here with a self loading pistol that governs slide velocity. When fired, upon unlock and breech opening the rearward slide velocity is initially retarded and controlled by the hammer spring.

As the as the slide travels rearward and cocks the hammer that control is handed off to the recoil spring (which more accurately ought to be called the return to battery spring as it has little to do with recoil).

The recoil spring slows the slide and builds up stored energy for the return to battery trip which begins when the slides spring box reached the frames impact abutment.

The third element governing slide velocity is the magazine spring. The magazine spring, through the ammo stack, applies a small amount of braking force to the slide as it travels rearward. This spring also retards forward travel a bit as the slide strips a fresh round from the magazine on the way to close and locking the breech for the next firing cycle. So, your recoil spring only needs to be strong enough to overcome this drag from the magazine and close the breech on a fresh round.

Changing any of those springs to a different force/weight upsets that balance which can manifest as all kinds of malfunctions i.e. failure to extract and failure to feed or bolt over base and failure to eject.

Extra power recoil springs... Increased slide velocity on closing. May cause bolt over base feed malfunctions and ejection problems. Slide is slamming into battery faster and harder than was designed. That force is absorbed by the frame through the slide stop cross-pin and the locking lugs atop the barrel that mesh with those in the slide. XP springs just serve to impart extra wear & tear on the weapon that is utterly unnecessary.

"poor mans action job"... Reduced power mainspring (hammer spring). Sure the DA trigger is lighter, but... hands off too much authority to the recoil spring for controlling initial slide velocity at unlock and opening, which the recoil spring is not good at. What you can wind up with is the weapon attempting to open and extract the empties too early before the case has shrunk down and let go of the chamber walls. Often manifests as extractor overriding the rim failure to extract faults. So to fix that we need to stick the XP recoil spring in there right

It's like that "pill pusher" MD we all know... prescribes a pill for this but it has a couple side effects so we prescribe a couple more pills for those which add more side effects and so on...

When a gun is presented to me with feeding issues... After a detailed inspection and bench checks, the first things I'm going to do is install a fresh factory recoil spring and mainspring, asses the extractor fitment, then take it for a spin. If there are still problems, even with several different mags, I'm going to take a closer look at extractor fitment and check for burrs or cratering on the breechface that might impede the case heads sliding up the breechface and under the extractor hook. Or any machining flaws that got past QC or other mechanical damage that could be at fault. Any weird aftermarket springs I find when servicing a gun go in the recycle bin.

So I would ask, with no disrespect or criticism intended, What is it about your 1006 that causes you to think it needs a 18# XP recoil spring installed?

Cheers
Bill

 

[Walter Rego]

No disrespect taken sir. I probably installed the 18 lb. spring due to some discussions on the 10mm Forums. The moderator there, whose screen name is The Shadow claimed that the factory spring for the 1006 is 18 lbs and he runs a 22 lb spring in his gun.

22 lbs sounds WAY too high to me as I understand the dynamics of too high of a weight causing problems with slamming the slide shut among other things. The Wolff website says 17 lbs is standard. Midway says 18 lbs is standard. I figured if Wolff was correct that going up only 1 lb was probably OK and if the other sources were correct with the 18 lb figure, then I would be in good shape with full power loads.

 

[BMCM]

Well, I'll tell you this... No two spring manufacturers use the same method of establishing spring weight. I learned this from consulting with Sprinco on the nested springs and in discussions with an engineer at ISMI. So when a given manufacturer makes a claim of a certain poundage that really has no meaning in the real world. What is important is how much force the spring applies at installed length and how much at breech open. Those are the useful values. I've been contemplating building a test stand to measure spring force at these positions to the nearest 0.001" but other projects demand my attention first, like a new roof on the house

I know some folks ascribe all kinds of magical properties to 10mm Auto. "Just as powerful as 41 magnum" for example, is one I've heard many times over the years. You'd think this load is right up there with a 120mm smoothbore cannon from some of the claims of these internet gurus.

Well, it's just no so. In terms of terminal ballistics, the 10mm Auto delivers about the same muzzle energy as 357magnum.

To illustrate, that 201610000 spring I mentioned in my last post... That is the factory standard recoil spring for a model 1006, Is also the factory standard spring for a 645, 745, 4506, in fact, all of the five inch 10mm & 45 guns call for this same spring.


Just to put things in perspective...I've quite a bit of trigger time behind 10mm & 45 platforms and I don't really note any significant difference in the recoil impulse given like sized firearms. Perhaps I'm not particularly recoil sensitive but to me a 4506 with 230s feels about the same as my 1006 shooting 180s or 200s. My 4513 shooting RA45T feels about the same as my 4014 chambered in 10mm Auto shooting Underwood's 165 Speer Gold Dot loading.

The 10mm Auto is a great round and I like it a great deal but it's not the super ultra magnum monster dinosaur crusher it's often made out to be.

Cheers
Bill

 

[84Carrera]

The 10mm Auto is a great round and I like it a great deal but it's not the super ultra magnum monster dinosaur crusher it's often made out to be.

Cheers
Bill

Come on Bill, I've got dozens of monster dinosaur trophies up on my walls shot, er, harvested with my 1076
All kidding aside 9+1 in the 1076 of .357 ballistics sure seems like enough firepower or even 8+1 in my 1014.
I always enjoy reading your posts and learn more with each one.

 

[Execpro]

I sold my 1006 many many years ago. I had problems with hot Norma loads, Winchester Silver Tips and one other ammo I can't remember.
The gun would bounce a round out of the mag onto the ground and chamber a round. This only happened with HOT ammo. I fixed it with a 2lb recoil spring increase over what came with the gun from the factory.
Never had the issue you mentioned (FTE). It could be an extractor issue as well.
Don't know if this info is of any use to you.

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!