Opinions please from former Scouts and friends of Scouting

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I was a cub scout, then a boy scout, then an assistant scout master and a scout master, then back to assistant scout master and finally a troop committee member assigned to sit in on the Eagle boards of review. I had over 40 years in scouting. During the time when I was assistant the first time then scoutmaster, our oldest boy was a scout, earning the rank of EAGLE SCOUT. Our youngest scout went thru cub scouts then joined boy scouts but lost interest after a year. He turned out not to be an outdoors person. He is now an I.T. guy at a local college, working under his brother the EAGLE SCOUT.
I also earned Wood Badge and received the District Award of Merit as a leader.
I was also an explorer leader for a co-ed explorer group. There the co-ed seemed right but I'll never be in favor of girls in the boy scouts, and I'm not against girls, I just don't think 11-14 yr old boys should be mixed with girls yet, too young and too inquisitive, let them mature a little before being combined in camping experiences. I realize there would need to be both male and female leaders, but I know young boys, there will be law suits when a 12-13 yr old girl gets pregnant at scout camp. There's no way the leaders could keep that from happening in my opinion, kids will sneak around and do what comes naturally when given the chance.
Bad idea.
 
Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow here, a long time ago. My experience in scouting was extremely sectarian and un-militaristic. We focused on wilderness skills; woodcraft, desert survival, etc.
I have long disapproved of what has happened to the local troops I am aware of here. They all seem to have been co-opted by a particular church and there is ongoing subtle indoctrination. I can also think of at least two incidents of child abuse in one troop.
If I were looking for a scout troop to put a child in, I wouldn't be able to find one.
Accepting girls seems to me to be an attempt at remaining relevant on the part of an organization that is losing ground. I don't know if that's good, or bad, but I know quite a few young ladies who could kick the average boy's backside on a 50 miler.
 
I left the scouts just before the "life" rank because I foolishly thought it hurt my street cred with the girls. If I was born 45 years later I could have stayed in the scouts and still gotten girls.

Seriously, I pushed my kids to stay in karate to get their black belts at a minimum. I told them it was something they earned on their own and no one could take it away from them. I likened it to becoming an Eagle scout. Every time I said that I regretted my decision to leave before I achieved my Eagle rank.

In my humble opinion, with this decision the BSA has tarnished the hard work and personal achievement of every young man who ever repeated the oath.
 
richardw said:
We live in different worlds I think. Do you really believe that men and women Marines are having a lot of sex together? If you do, your imagination is out of control. As for scouts do you really believe that mingling boys and girls in a combined activity will result in an increase in sexual behavior? I hope not, but if you do, I think you need some help.
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I don't need any help. I don't believe that men and women Marines or Army are having rampant sex issues. These are trained and disciplined, responsible adults.

I don't think there is any problem in having girls and boys doing activities together. Actually that is a good thing. The problems arise during extended outings of more than one day. At night when everyone is supposed to be sleeping, but some aren't, is what I'm talking about. When hormones are at an all time high, and kids are wanting to be together, sometimes things get out of hand. Have you never heard of teenage pregnancy? It seems you may be a bit naive about teenage behavior.
 
All you GUYS worried about teens having sex, if they want it they will find a way, true. Maybe some of you should look back on your misspent youth.
Were you ALL male virgins until you were 20 yrs. old? I highly doubt it.

Teen pregnancy is at its lowest rate in over 20 years.

Scouting and other youth groups (in general) should be a vehicle to give teens a chance to interact with each other without the peer pressure to
"just do it" whether that be sex, drugs, drinking, bullying and whatever.

Are girls going to be fully integrated into the entire Boy Scout program?
I don't think that is the intent.

Just some Sunday thoughts.........
 
...I don't think girls would have done well in South Denver Troop 88...we met in a church basement...and tried to keep meetings short so we could get down to the real business at hand...playing "sock hockey"...

...we would take our shoes off which made it possible to slide across the church basement floor...made a hockey puck out of aluminum foil...and goals were set up between folding chairs...then we would proceed to batter and bruise each other into bloody pulps...not a thing the girls of our era cared to join into...

...if that wasn't enough...when leaving the meeting...someone would usually yell "dog pile!"...and tackle the guy nearest him...and the rest of us would jump on top and see how high a pile we could form...leaving the guy on the bottom struggling to breath...not a top ambition of those of the feminine gland it seemed...

...political correctness has damaged or ruined a lot of things...scouting will be or has been added to the list...we were so politically incorrect in the 60s that we had a Confederate Flag on our neckerchiefs...
 
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raised two boys from tiger to eagle. i was den leader, cubmaster, asst scoutmaster and currently troop secretary. daughter did the girlscouts and got her silver award. IMO, this is a good move. forget about the SJW aspect, i don't think its there. the BSA is a great program, perfectly suited for boys and girls. if they had allowed this when my daughter was growing up, she would have been an eagle, guaranteed. this will open the program up more for families and get more people involved. if more people were exposed to, and lived by the tenants of the oath, law, slogan and motto, this would be a much better world.
 
pawngal said:
All you GUYS worried about teens having sex, if they want it they will find a way, true. Maybe some of you should look back on your misspent youth.
Were you ALL male virgins until you were 20 yrs. old? I highly doubt it.

Teen pregnancy is at its lowest rate in over 20 years.

Scouting and other youth groups (in general) should be a vehicle to give teens a chance to interact with each other without the peer pressure to
"just do it" whether that be sex, drugs, drinking, bullying and whatever.

Are girls going to be fully integrated into the entire Boy Scout program?
I don't think that is the intent.

Just some Sunday thoughts.........
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So are you saying we should do what we can to make it easier for them and give them more opportunity to have teen sex?

Or are you asserting that somehow because it is in the context of a Scouting event, it is less likely to occur?

I'm obviously confused.
 
Rustyt1953 said:
Logan and 4 of his teammates (9-10) are here for burgers and hot dogs after their football game. Thinking of this thread, I asked them if they knew much about the scouts and if they had considered joining.

They had some knowledge of it but had no interest. They said it didn't have much of a cool factor and that between school and year round sports their dance cards were full.
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Scouting doesn't have much of a "cool factor"? Well, maybe so if all a kid thinks about are hamburgers, hot dogs, and playing sports year round. And maybe video games and comic books. God forbid they participate in anything that might teach them some real life skills. And please spare me the homilies about how sports teaches fair play and teamwork and how to be a good loser...I heard all that when I was in junior high.

Rustyt1953 said:
If ya want a straight answer, ask a kid.
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Nah, ask a kid if you want a somewhat selfish, self-serving answer. I don't wanna be a scout cause it ain't cool, never mind that I don't know anything about it. Right. It's only "not cool" in their uninformed-ten-year-old-view of the real world.
 
ABSOLUTELY!!!

BC38 said:
So are you saying we should do what we can to make it easier for them and give them more opportunity to have teen sex?

Or are you asserting that somehow because it is in the context of a Scouting event, it is less likely to occur?

I'm obviously confused.
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How could anyone possibly believe that teens in an adult supervised event are going to have more sex than when unsupervised at a kids house where the parents are not there, or in a car or in any number of UNSUPERVISED places that we used to get busy before we were 18???? Confused is underrating it, more like delusional. :D
 
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nachogrande said:
That just might make those long tours more interesting & enjoyable. :)
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My niece spent a couple of years on one of the nuclear submarines, the USS Louisiana (SSBN 743) before moving on to bigger and better tings in the Navy. She is a career Navy Officer having just made LT Commander.
 
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THANK HER FOR HER SERVICE.

I'll bet just having a female aboard to talk to brightened the days of some sailors & boosted morale. Good for her! If she was up to the task, why not be there? What year did the navy start allowing females on subs?
 
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nachogrande said:
How could anyone possibly believe that teens in an adult supervised event are going to have more sex than when unsupervised at a kids house where the parents are not there, or in a car or in any number of UNSUPERVISED places that we used to get busy before we were 18???? Confused is underrating it, more like delusional. :D
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Dude, how much have you been involved in Scouting?
I've already shared about my years of involvement.
How many teenagers do you currently have in your home?
I've got two still at home.
I think I know of what I speak FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE.
Do you?

The fact is that on a campout the adults are not present to supervise every one of the kids every minute of every day. That is true even at CUB Scout camp - much less a camp full of teenagers. I did it for 8 years straight. I know what I'm talking about. Heck, even 40 years ago when I was a scout we managed to sneak off and get into mischief when we were at camp.

As for kids being unsupervised at home, that isn't what this discussion is about. If you think you have a workable solution to that problem, then you must be the smartest person on the planet. Please share it with all of us - and the country as a whole.

THIS discussion is about throwing boys and girls into the mix together out in the woods where they outnumber the adults 15 or 20 to one, and where there are lots of tents and other places where they can sneak off and "get busy". I'm sorry, but it is NOT a good idea.

My big question is this. What POSITIVE opportunities are girls going to gain by being in Boy Scouts that they can't get by being in Girl Scouts? IF there even is such a benefit, why not simply expand the opportunities available to girls in their existing organization? Why do we need to further blur the lines between the genders. Isn't that distinction already being blurred enough?
 
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lrrifleman said:
Hopefully, this will not be dinged by the Moderators, I don't believe that this violates any forum rules, but I have been known to be wrong on occasion!

I am an Eagle Scout, having earned my rank in September, 1972 in Delaware District, Camden County Council (NJ). I was raised old school with values and morals. I have lived my life by the Twelve Points. There were some accepted basic realities: Boy Scouts were for young men, Girl Scouts were for young ladies, and women didn't belong in the Combat Arms nor in combat zones.

Yesterday's announcement that the Boy Scouts of America were allowing young ladies to be either Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts was disturbing, and the fact that girls can now work for the coveted Eagle Award nearly knocked me over. Growing up, the understanding was that boys could learn skills appropriate to their gender from past and present at their own pace in Boy Scouts, the same as girls could do (likewise) in Girl Scouts. I remember pushing myself to my limits, not being held back. I remember working on and excelling in the fields of various merit badges, and "roughing it" during summer camp adventures both in and out of Council. NEVER, were we held back by other guys or girls.

I don't believe that I am biased, but programs for boys should be sacred for boys, and programs for girls should be sacred for girls. I find it hard to envision working on the politically incorrect merit badges or doing summer camp with adolescent girls. Would the 50 Miler award or Historic Trails award still be attainable?

One of my goals has been to allow my children (daughter and son) to have a childhood as close to mine as possible. While I realize that National Council is leaving the ultimate decision up to the local Packs and Troops, I have a problem with the possibility of my son doing (summer) camp with girls growing into womanhood or members of the uncertain gender, the same as having my daughter camping or doing "girl stuff" with young biological males. Sometimes, children need a break from the opposite gender.

Having grown up amongst "wild" boys and girls, and having taught their ilk for too many years, I just don't know what this world is coming to! I have severe reservations about whether my children will continue in Scouting based on the latest (ill informed) decision by the Boy Scouts.

May I ask the opinion of those here that rose through the ranks of Scouting, or have had an interest in Scouting? Thanks for your opinions!
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I earned First Class Scout in the late 60's. The developments of today are nothing more than the result of our decaying morality.
People have lost all semblance of common sense.
 
Cub Scout for a while (pretty limp Pack, so I dropped out). Joined BSA in
6th grade and made Eagle Sophomore year. New and unliked SM took over after I made Eagle, so my buds and I bailed troop and started Explorer Post. My interest in Scouting unfortunately waned and I let my buds who joined the Post with me down as my interests had changed and I wasn't around to mentor them.

Eagle Scout, Philmont and National Jamboree, 25 merit badges, Scout Camp Staff Life Guard, Order of the Arrow, I'd had enuf.

Dad was on Troop Commitee as soon as I joined, he grew into District and Council posts. He took Woodbadge and began teaching on 25 WB staffs and then was a 4 Beader who Scout Mastered 10 WB courses.
 
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1960 WAS 57 YEARS AGO.

Women ARE currently in combat roles, doing well and making us & other nations proud. I'm asked questions about myself & history/experience. Who are YOU to decide what gender belongs where or what activity is gender appropriate? I don't see a merit badge as being PC one way or the other, simply an acknowledgement of a skill learned. Are you saying some kids can learn some things and not other things based on their gender? That is just silly and would only hold some kids back. I view learning any skill as a positive, and can't understand the pushback against it. If our nation intends to move forward we will have to be willing to let go of the past & outdated thinking. We, meaning the USA is on a fast track to becoming a third world nation unless our kids progress beyond where we WERE and become competitive with the rest of the planet.
 
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nachogrande said:
Women ARE currently in combat roles, doing well and making us & other nations proud. I'm asked questions about myself & history/experience. Who are YOU to decide what gender belongs where or what activity is gender appropriate? I don't see a merit badge as being PC one way or the other, simply an acknowledgement of a skill learned. Are you saying some kids can learn some things and not other things based on their gender? That is just silly and would only hold some kids back. I view learning any skill as a positive, and can't understand the pushback against it. If our nation intends to move forward we will have to be willing to let go of the past & outdated thinking. We, meaning the USA is on a fast track to becoming a third world nation unless our kids progress beyond where we WERE and become competitive with the rest of the planet.
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OK, so then would the answer to my question about your experience as a Scout and as a parent of teenagers be "None"?

I am not the one trying to define or REDEFINE anything. It is the progressive agenda that is trying to redefine or blur the definitions of everything.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question of why girls have to join the BOY Scouts in order to have these opportunities that you think they are being denied. Why exactly can't they be offered all those the same opportunities within the GIRL Scouts?

And I am sorry, but I have to call "ridiculous BS" on the assertion that we are on our way to becoming a 3rd world nation because we have gender segregated clubs for our kids. Talk about hyperbole!
 
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Ladies and gentlemen of the forum, I wish to thank you for your opinions. What you have shared has been eye opening and enlightening. I intentionally left my initial post vague when I started this thread, because I didn't want to guide you to any specific type of response.

I feel that I now need to elaborate. When I was back in Cub Scouts, we never did camping, that was reserved for Boy Scouts. When I was in Cubs, my sister participated in our activities, because my mother was the Den Mother. I think when my sister wasn't present, we (the boys) were more focused to the task at hand.

When I was in Boy Scouts, we were lucky if we had 4 dads present for a camping trip, with anywhere from 20-30 guys. I wasn't focused on the prospect of boys and girls exercising what they learned in either health or math class, but that is a valid concern, since many parents seem to engage in drop and run tactics.

Back when I was in Boy Scouts, when it came time to work on merit badges, the counselors expected the scouts to show up having done work in preparation for the meeting, not to expect the counselor to teach everything the Scout needed to know to meet the requirements. I realize that the girls may be a pleasant distraction for the boys, I was concerned how their physical needs could impact troop activities. I don't want to be crude, but when you introduce girls into troop scheduled events, it can be hard to coordinate "timing". Hikes, canoe trips, and even camping trips would have to accommodate the ladies' needs when her time of the month presents itself.

I remember when my troop was involved in a service project where we were all drenched to the skin because we were cleaning out a neighboring drainage run ... I have difficulty envisioning the ladies participating like the guys. It is also difficult to envision the ladies putting up with some of the (dirty or physical) tasks that may cross their paths. Yes, I may be sexist here.

In '72, when I did my Board of Review, I was one of the last Scout "classes" under the old rules [at that time] to have to do the specific 11 required badges of the 21 required ... beginning in '73 Scouts were permitted to pick 11 out of 13 required badges, not needing to do swimming or lifesaving. In many respects, I fear that the requirements for Eagle may be "watered-down" to meet the abilities of the ladies.

What I fear will happen when Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are neutered by allowing the opposite sex to join:
1. I fear that troop activities will be negatively impacted due to the physical needs of girls.
2. I fear that rank requirements may be "watered-down" when girls don't achieve targeted ranks in the same percentages as the boys.
3. While the possibility of teenage pregnancy is a possibility, I don't think that Scouting should provide a setting and conditions that could encourage a compromising encounter.
4. While it is a greater threat in Girl Scouts, I fear the presence of the biological male identifying as a female with the clandestine agenda of fulfilling desires that could lead to abuse, molestation, or pregnancy.
5. Considering the rise of instances of improper teacher-student relationships that are leading to criminal charges, we shouldn't expose good leaders to the risk of abuse and molestation charges (or worse) by introducing the opposite gender into a gender defined organization.

I think that it may be time to step down from my soapbox. Thank you for tolerating my thread and views.
 
BC38 said:
I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question of why girls have to join the BOY Scouts in order to have these opportunities that you think they are being denied. Why exactly can't they be offered all those the same opportunities within the GIRL Scouts?
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BC38,

I don't know if this is the answer you seek, but this is the significant difference that I see between Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. I may be incorrect in some respects, but it won't be the first time.

Girl Scouts. Boy Scouts
Daisies. = K Cubs
Brownies. = Cub Scouts
Juniors. = Weblos
Cadets. = Boy Scouts
Ambassadors. = Explorers

In Girl Scouts (all levels), the ranks are achieved as "journeys", while in Boy Scouts (all levels) are the ranks we know: Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, Lion, Weblos, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle. In the various Girl Scouts you have "fun patches" from fun activities, while in Boy Scouts you have over 100 merit badges unique to the interests of the Scout. Merit Badges (as are associated with Boy Scouts) just don't seem to exist in Girl Scouts. In Girl Scouts, the fun patches seem to be troop earned, without the individuality seen in Boy Scouts.

While there seems to be more structure in the ranks of Boy Scouts and a greater variety of achievements available to meet the interests of the boy, the same doesn't appear to be able to be said for the girls. In many respects, the merit badge structure seems to be more career identifying for the boys than what is offered for the girls.
 
lrrifleman said:
BC38,

I don't know if this is the answer you seek, but this is the significant difference that I see between Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. I may be incorrect in some respects, but it won't be the first time.

Girl Scouts. Boy Scouts
Daisies. = K Cubs
Brownies. = Cub Scouts
Juniors. = Weblos
Cadets. = Boy Scouts
Ambassadors. = Explorers

In Girl Scouts (all levels), the ranks are achieved as "journeys", while in Boy Scouts (all levels) are the ranks we know: Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, Lion, Weblos, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle. In the various Girl Scouts you have "fun patches" from fun activities, while in Boy Scouts you have over 100 merit badges unique to the interests of the Scout. Merit Badges (as are associated with Boy Scouts) just don't seem to exist in Girl Scouts. In Girl Scouts, the fun patches seem to be troop earned, without the individuality seen in Boy Scouts.

While there seems to be more structure in the ranks of Boy Scouts and a greater variety of achievements available to meet the interests of the boy, the same doesn't appear to be able to be said for the girls. In many respects, the merit badge structure seems to be more career identifying for the boys than what is offered for the girls.
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OK, so they are organized differently. And why can the Girl Scouts NOT modify their program or add to it in order to incorporate an advancement track similar to the Boy Scouts? Why do the Boy Scouts have to change to admit girls instead of the existing girls organization changing to address these "deficiencies" in their program?
 
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BC38 said:
OK, so they are organized differently. And why can the Girl Scouts NOT modify their program or add to it in order to incorporate an advancement track similar to the Boy Scouts? Why do the Boy Scouts have to change to admit girls instead of the existing girls organization changing to address these "deficiencies" in their program?
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Sir, sadly you have asked the million dollar question that I am not in a position to answer.
 
lrrifleman said:
BC38,


In Girl Scouts (all levels), the ranks are achieved as "journeys", while in Boy Scouts (all levels) are the ranks we know: Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, Lion, Weblos, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle. In the various Girl Scouts you have "fun patches" from fun activities, while in Boy Scouts you have over 100 merit badges unique to the interests of the Scout. Merit Badges (as are associated with Boy Scouts) just don't seem to exist in Girl Scouts. In Girl Scouts, the fun patches seem to be troop earned, without the individuality seen in Boy Scouts.

While there seems to be more structure in the ranks of Boy Scouts and a greater variety of achievements available to meet the interests of the boy, the same doesn't appear to be able to be said for the girls. In many respects, the merit badge structure seems to be more career identifying for the boys than what is offered for the girls.
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That is what I was talking about in one of my previous posts. I happen to have in hand the Girl Scout Handbook from when I was a member. At that time there were 115 merit badges to be earned in a wide variety fields. Yes, I just now counted them.
Some are individual work and some were as a troop, most were a combination.
The Girl Scout organization is failing many girls that have interests in the outdoors, nature, animals, exploring career choices, and lots of other things.

I'll admit I don't much knowledge of either the Boy or Girl Scout programs currently. I do know that locally numbers are way down for both. 4-H is very big here especially since their programs have expanded considerably. It is no longer Cattle & Hogs for the boys and cooking & sewing for the girls. Yes, there is even a shooting club.
 
BC38 said:
OK, so they are organized differently. And why can the Girl Scouts NOT modify their program or add to it in order to incorporate an advancement track similar to the Boy Scouts? Why do the Boy Scouts have to change to admit girls instead of the existing girls organization changing to address these "deficiencies" in their program?
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Exactly !!!
 
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