PC guns use MIM parts now?

[S&WIowegan]

I am so sick and tired of this MIM whining I would like to ask the great GORILLA to ban it as a political topic!! Please.

It's not about forged vs MIM, it's about fitting. The problem with the newest guns coming out of S&W is that CNC and MIM parts are so precisely produced the company can essentially assemble and sell without much fitting. This can lead to complaints like hammer rubbing, but believe me hammer rubbing is very common in older Smiths.

I own and shoot several Performance Center guns in competion and they serve me well. Every one of them required expert gunsmith attention to achieve PC levels of performance. No, I did not send them back....I hired a gunsmith/competitive shooter I could trust to do it right.

Remember...S&W had a near death experience in 1999-2000 when the owners cut a deal with Clinton they thought would get them a lot of gubmint contracts. It didn't....they got suckered and the American gun buyers snubbed S&W big time. Virtually all employees moved on. Recently, the co. is making lots of guns and hiring new employees. The key word is NEW....they don't have the old-time fitting and finishing background. These guns are not INFERIOR, just rough around the edges.


PS yogi...when you come to a fork in the road, take it!

 

[DonD]

I am no expert but I will offer the following opine...

-MIM parts are just as strong as forged.
-MIM parts are more consistent in their production therefore requiring less "fitting" to achieve a consistent result...less labor costs.
-MIM parts are cheaper to produce.

Given that most gun buyers look at price first it is hard to blame S&W for doing whatever they can to compete. Smith could continue the old traditions and still sell guns but they would be marketing to a much smaller demographic...they have always been a gun maker for the masses and MIM is what they have to do to continue to offer guns at prices most people will pay. Continuing to use forged parts would price them out of the every day buyers market.

I understand the reverence for guns made in the old order of things...I love my older, pre-lock revolvers...but I also understand the need for cost cutting. All manufacturers of all guns (production guns) as well as other industries use MIM parts...not really a choice. JMHO.

Well written. Change is inevitable, longing for the old ways won't stop it. The reservoir of older guns will eventually dry up and you'll have to buy what is then out there. Personally, short of high end British double barreled elephant rifles, something I wouldn't pay the price for, guns today are the best ever.

You can get factory rifles with .5 MOA guarantees, accuracy that was basically unheard of 30 yrs ago. I love the new stuff S&W builds. Don

 

[DonD]

This is the reason I stick to pre lock S&W's.Even 50-60 year old Revolvers are smoother than the new PC stuff.I figure if they are still around today and smooth as silk they will outlast me and keep on going.They just don't build them like they used to could not be more true for Smith's.I would rather take a chance on a used pre lock smith than take the same chance with a new Smith.

Pretty much leaves you being limited to .38 Specials and a few .357s, many with crude non adjustable sights, I'd hate to have such a restricted menu of choices. Don

 

[Engine49guy]

PC guns should be held to a higher standard because they are an elete product,
If your not happy with your hammer rubbing send it in and have it repaired under warranty like they offered.

Forged parts also can rub and while I prefer forged over MIM my pre lock 686-5 Mountain Gun with MIM Hammer / Trigger and is an excellent revolver.

While I dont think MIM is a big issue I do believe the IL should only be available as an option especially on PC guns,
The factory could simply stop drilling the IL hole and it would save them the costs of unnecessary internal parts.

 

[Yogi619]

I really didn't mean to start a MIM war on this. I was simply offput about these two sentences in particular "When the stockroom is empty, then the MIM parts come out. They don't advertise what parts are in their guns and the customer assumes because it says PC that is what they are getting".

If it is common knowledge at Smith that the customer is assuming wrongly, then why not set the record straight? To me, it sounds like they found a way to use a different product than what the general public believes they're getting, and since that other product is more desireable, chooses not to correct them.

Overall, I'll probably send it back and see what they say. Again, I have no fight in the MIM thing, and my 627 is limited only to plinking duty (The Benelli M4 pretty much takes the place of everything else, including more plinking).

Oh, one last thing... My final email was asking if he could give me a round-about date of when they started using MIM parts in their PC guns, purely out of curiosity, and I never got any response back. I'll more than likely buy another PC gun, even knowing what I know now.

 

[jaymoore]

The likely cause of the hammer rubbing is not due to the hammer but the hammer pivot pin. Very sensitive to alignment it is, and can be thrown off during the assembly process surprisingly easily if care isn't taken. Once the sideplate is on there's the added question of the support given by the recess in the sideplate itself. Positioning, size, etc. Generally there's enough slop that it won't correct the minor misalignment of the pivot pin. So there's a tendency for the hammer to lightly kiss one side or the other. Sometimes even an offset mainspring is all it takes, even with a perfect pivot pin.

Usually there's no functional drama. Just cosmetic. Used to worry me, but anymore I just care how well the thing runs.

BTW, the latest PC in the stable, a TRR8, has one of the best actions I've ever had on a Smith, PC or otherwise. Is there hmmer rub on it? I think so! But they sort of all run together anymore...

 

[BillyWayne]

I recently sent back a PC 327 R8 for severe hammer rub. The gun had forged parts. S&W replaced the forged hammer with a MIM hammer. It works. I have done loads of trigger jobs on S&W revolvers and on average I seem to get a better job on MIM parts. That being said, the best trigger job I have done to date was on forged parts. To me it is in the fitting and fine tuning. Both can be made to work real nice.

 

[guzzi]

You folks should know the MIM technology is deeply employed in the automotive industry. Connecting rods in almost all modern vehicles are MIM as are other parts. The cap and rod end are actually fractured to create the crank pin fit instead of cut in half and machine bored. Does this work for a self defence structure? It is all in the technology...jb

 

[sodacan]

The real gunsmiths at S&W are their accountants and lawyers. MIM parts happened. I don't believe anyone actually likes them, but they're here and not going away. They may be okay, but I not a metallurgist and can't comment on their quality. Being more traditional in my taste for guns, I don't care to own guns that have them. Most of my guns date back to when S&W produced all of their guns to a much higher quality standard, and gunsmiths were artists. If you buy an old S&W revolver and examine it and shoot it, you'll quickly appreciate it for the quality and craftsmanship it exhibits. Unless you're stuck on eight shot cylinders and scandium, consider buying a an old "N" or "K" frame six shooter. They may change your way of thinking. In the case of S&W's PC, the guns may receive a little more attention, but the real reason for its existence is as a marketing ploy and a cash grab. Happy holidays to all. Keep our troops in your thoughts and prayers.

 

[williamlayton]

MIM Parts are good----I also don't like to hear the whinning>
Blessings

 

[jdickson397]

I just don't understand the concern about MIM parts. I have owned several MIM S&W's with no problems whatsoever. Much ado about nothing.

 

[DR505]

 

[hkcavalier]

Some related topics:

1911 vs. Glock
Pre-64 vs. Post-64
AR vs. AK
500 vs. 870
Coke vs. Pepsi
Skippy vs. JIF
Ford vs. Chevy
Joe vs. The Volcano
Mayweather vs. Pacquiao (which might happen when they are both washed up and in their 40s)

There seem to be two things that aren't going to change: S&W is going to continue to put MIM and locks in their new guns, especially the latter due to who bought them 10+ years ago. I'm just getting into collecting S&W revolvers and it seems the only reason to go after the pre-MIM guns is rarity. Function seems identical. S&W like every American company seeks to reduce costs. Yeah they pooped the bed with the Clinton era pandering but that was 15 years ago. Buy the gun not the politics.

 

[RWJ]

Frame mounted F/P centerfire

As far as I know, regular production centerfire revolvers never had a forged hammer that accommodates the frame mounted pin.

Maybe the Model 547?