Pre 1901 calibers

[rednichols]

Thanks so much for the assistance I've been given on this forum (see my recent post about Triple Lock dimensions), I normally post only on holster forums.

Based in Queensland, Australia as I am (I'm a Yank), and a holster designer/maker of long standing, I've only recently learnt that I can have a pre-1901 firearm here without acquiring a gun license. In case you might think that's a small concession, consider that in Australia to have a gun license I have to go through many steps that require, amongst other things, that I compete monthly and cannot acquire more than one handgun in the same caliber. I won't bore you with the full list of ever-higher barriers to handgun ownership unless someone demands it!

Anyway: in a cartridge gun, the further requirement is that it be "ammunition not commercially available" -- and here is the list:

https://www.police.qld.gov.au/progra...ailability.htm

Did any S&W pre-1901 pistol come in any of the "approved" calibers? You can appreciate that I would be willing to pay "too much" for one I could import without the restriction of a license to possess (but of course with a license to import, which I do routinely for my replica firearm moulds for holsters; yes, I even have to get an import permit for them, though no license is required to use or sell; but nevertheless banned on Australian eBay because of the other States' requirements; in Victoria I have to have a gun license even for 'blue' guns). I'm proposing to COMPLY with the law, and I am not asking for assistance to do anything illegal here or in USA.

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[rct269]

The link gets me a "Not Found" page-----------??

 

[rednichols]

The link gets me a "Not Found" page-----------??

Does me, too. Might be a Smith forum thing because it's working over on the identical thread on Colt Forum. Here it is again:

https://www.police.qld.gov.au/progr...ication/ammunition/ammunitionavailability.htm

If this doesn't work, please advise and I'll gladly cut-n-paste the list to this thread I've got the bit in my teeth now!

 

[merl67]

Seems to be some confusion on the list 32 S&W is on there twice one is approved the other isn't. If you can get some clarification that is the only one I could see that would make sense. The only other one would be the 32 rimfire but the ammo when found runs $2.00 per round and is scarce at that.

 

[Alk8944]

I get the same result with your link, "not found".

If the criteria is that ammunition be "not commercially available" is pretty strict in that nearly every caliber available in cartridge form from the 1860s to date is still commercially available. I can think of only a few if we stick to S&W revolvers, and even these are often available from boutique or custom loaders. I would expect that this requirement includes "in Australia". If it means worldwide then the acceptable calibers are really reduced.

Just common calibers once chambered in S&W revolvers that are not commercially available that I can think of are:

.44 American
.41 S&W (Never in serial production)
.32-44 Target
.38-44 Target (Not the 1929 cartridge for the Outdoorsman and Heavy Duty!)
.320 Revolving Rifle
.22 S&W

There may be a couple more. All those listed were chambered only in the Tip-up and large frame top-break S&Ws. To my recollection there is no caliber ever chambered in any of the Hand Ejector series S&W revolvers that are not commercially available.

 

[DocB]

Yeah 32 rimfire and 41 rimfire represent guns you can buy here without too much trouble. Only one is a Smith & Wesson. . .the old 32 rimfire. A Remington double barrel derringer is what the 41 rimfire goes into. They made them into the 1920's. The Remington has gotten expensive and breaks easily. It would be fun to have an old Smith 32 in nice condition (mine is on the crummy side); but, ammo availability makes it a very hard gun to shoot much.

 

[cgt4570]

There are methods to make useable brass for .32 and .41 rimfire by using .22 blanks as primers for black powder loads.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I could live with a revolver chambered for .44 American.

 

[Skeetr57]

The only three calibers for S&W that I can think of that aren't listed are the .44 S&W American, the .32 -44 target and the .38-44 target. I know that ammo can be made for the .44 American and the .32-44 without much problem, and probably the .38-44 target, but I have no idea of the Australian restrictions on hand loading. The .32-44 can be loaded using .32-20 cases and an appropriately sized cast bullet. Also, in the list, I don't recall seeing .32- 20, .38-40 or .44-40 listed as allowed or not allowed. S&W made revolvers in all of those calibers.

 

[rednichols]

The second posting of the link is working for me, yet here is the listing cut-n-pasted from it.

If it's not to much of a hodge-podge, remember the point is not whether or not it can be hand loaded, nor if someone here thinks it MIGHT be available. Here what matters is, IS IT ON THE APPROVED LIST OR NOT Very pedantic operatives here, and my blue gun imports requires that I personally attend the Customs office here and they are handed over by armed officers.

50-70 (50 Govt) Husqvarna NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 13/09/2006
.22 Cal Winchester S/ Auto NOT APPROVED manufactured after 01/01/1901 13/06/2006
.22 short (rimfire) NOT APPROVED ammunition available 30/09/2005
.230 cal Tranter revolver APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 30/11/2007
.255 calibre Jeffrey APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 6/10/2005
.30 cal Derringer APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 5/12/2007
.30 cal rimfire pepperbox APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 1/09/2005
.30 Calibre Le Faucheux APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 4/08/2009
.300 Sherwood W/Richards NOT APPROVED manufactured after 01/01/1901 20/06/2006
.31 Calibre Rocketball APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 11/02/2010
.319 Calibre Predator APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 20/01/2006
.32 (.320) S&W APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
.32 Browning pistol NOT APPROVED ammunition available 19/08/2005
.32 cal rimfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
.32 cal S & W NOT APPROVED ammunition available 16/02/2005
.32 cal Teatfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
.32 calibre Belgian APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 25/06/2009
.320 revolver NOT APPROVED ammunition available 19/08/2005
.36 calibre Thuer APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 1/02/2006
.38 Cal Pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 27/10/2005
.38 cal Short Colt NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 3/04/2010
.38 calibre Lip-fire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 6/11/2009
.38 Calibre Rimfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 1/02/2006
.38 Long Colt NOT APPROVED ammunition available 1/08/2005
.380 cal Hollis and Sons NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 13/11/2006
.380 Cal Webley and Scott NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 3/04/2010
.41 Long Colt NOT APPROVED ammunition available 31/10/2005
.41 rimfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 19/08/2005
.42 calibre Glisenti APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 7/10/2008
.44 calibre Henry Flat 1866 APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 1/06/2006
.44 calibre Merwin Hulbert APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 16/01/2009
.442 Calibre APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 5/05/2005
.45 cal Reichs revolver NOT APPROVED ammunition available 14/09/2005
.45 cal Smith and Wesson NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 10/08/2009
.45 calibre Colt Frontier NOT APPROVED ammunition available 30/03/2006
.45 Calibre Spanish Pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 29/06/2007
.450 cal NOT APPROVED ammunition available 12/05/2005
.455 calibre NOT APPROVED ammunition commercailly available 7/12/2006
.476 Enfield Mk1 revolver APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 13/10/2005
.50 calibre pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
.50 Calibre Rocketball APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 11/02/2010
.500 cal Hollis s/shot NOT APPROVED ammunition available 16/02/2006
.539 cal Breechloader rifle APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 10/09/2007
.54 calibre Starr Arms APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 30/11/2006
.563 cal Westley Richards APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 1/06/2007
.577 Snider BSA / ENFIELD NOT APPROVED ammunition available 1/08/2005
.68 calibre French APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 30/11/2006
10 gauge 2 1/2 " APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 29/03/2005
10 gauge Lewis shotgun NOT APPROVED ammunition commercailly available 20/09/2006
10mm Belgium pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 20/03/2006
11.15 x 60 Rmm Mauser NOT APPROVED ammunition commercialy available 10/10/2006
11.4x50Rmm Werndl APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 26/10/2005
11mm Leige (Belgium) APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 16/05/2007
11mm pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/092005
11X59Rmm French Gras NOT APPROVED ammunition commercialy available 30/11/2006
12 gauge Brunn Maker NOT APPROVED ammunition available 3/05/2006
12 gauge pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
12mm Pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 30/01/2008
14mm Howdah pistol APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 25/06/2009
16 gauge pinfire shotgun APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 20/08/2007
16 gauge shotgun Daw NOT APPROVED ammunition available 13/02/2006
28 cal 30 cal 42 cal Plant APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 24/01/2007
297/230 Morris APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 19/01/2006
31 36 38 41 cal volcanic APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 8/06/2006
32-40 Remington APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 21/02/2008
35 cal Fabrique Nationale NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 21/08/2005
35 Winchester rifle 5 shot NOT APPROVED manufactured after 01/01/1901 3/05/2006
38-45 cal Stevens APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 20/02/2007
38-56 Winchester cartridge NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 30/10/2009
3mm pinfire Le Petit APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 24/07/2008
40 calibre Maynard APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 18/01/2007
40-60 Winchester cartridge NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 30/10/2009
40-60-260 Colt APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 18/01/2007
40-70 Sharps APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 16/02/2006
43 cal Remington Egyptian NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 2/06/2006
450 Colt NOT APPROVED ammunition available 1/08/2005
45-70 Government NOT APPROVED ammunition available 13/02/2006
45-75 Winchester NOT APPROVED ammunition available 3/05/2006
500/450 rifle Tolley NOT APPROVED ammunition available 13/02/2006
50-95 Winchester NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 18/01/2007
56-50 Lever action Spencer NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 20/06/2006
577/450 calibre Cat B NOT APPROVED ammunition available 9/06/2005
5mm Bergmann APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 3/08/2007
5mm German Purse APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 25/08/2008
6.5 mm x 53R Steyr NOT APPROVED ammunition available 5/08/2005
6mm Flobert saloon NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 7/12/2006
6mm pinfire Apache pistol APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 13/06/2006
7.2mm St Etienne APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 25/08/2008
7.65mm pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 30/08/2005
7mm pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
7mm Pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 13/06/2006
8 gauge Cashmore APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 28/05/2008
8mm Mauser NOT APPROVED ammunition available 5/08/2005
8mm Pinfire Lefauchaux APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 10/10/2006
8mm Rast-Gasser NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 19/05/2009
8mm X58R Carl Gustaf NOT APPROVED ammunition available​ 3/05/2006
8X50 R Lebel NOT APPROVED ammunition commercially available 1/02/2010
8X50Rmm APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 12/01/2006
8x60Rmm APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 5/12/2005
9mm pinfire APPROVED ammunition not commercially available 14/09/2005
9mm x 57 Mauser NOT APPROVED ammunition available 1/08/2005
*Denotes:
APPROVED - means ammunition not commercially available
Non Approved - means ammunition is commercially available
Commercial Availability Information

Although the term “commercially available” has not been defined within the Act it is considered that if ammunition is available for purchase here or overseas for the purposes of the Act it is commercially available.

 

[glowe]

I can't help but notice the absurdity of this all. If 150 year old calibers like 577 Snider are not approved in your country, there is little hope for any positive outcome to your search.

 

[rednichols]

I can't help but notice the absurdity of this all. If 150 yaear old calibers like 577 Snider are not approved in your country, there is little hope for any positive outcome to your search.

Agreed. And I should have culled the list first. Let's not waste any more effort on this one, I've spotted the obvious calibers in the meantime.

 

[Texas Star]

Faced with this, I think a .476 Colt SAA or New Service or Webley-Green or Wilkinson-Webley marked for .476 may be legal. BUT I think .476 guns can fire the available .455 ammo, both MK I and MK II. The .455 Colt is basically a commercial MK I load. It was probably the best of the various .455 ammo. Gave about 750 FPS vs. the app. 600 FPS of .455 MK II.


Why are you in that country? Anyone liking guns and making holsters can find better places to live. Most snakes are very dangerous and the spiders are the worst. Can't kill native wildlife, which probably means that you can't defend against croc or shark attacks. Or dingos.


We had a recent topic here though about some collector in Queensland who had an extensive collection of modern S&W guns. He knew some senior cop who saw that he got the right licenses.


Some countries, like Brazil, have collector licenses that allow one to possess guns normally banned. But I don't think Brazilian collectors can shoot those guns! Our member Ray in Rio may see this and explain further.


Australia is surely a hostile environment for firearms. Overall, I think it's worse than in Canada, also a government-oriented police state. There's a reason why we had a revolution in 1776...