Pure Bred Dog Rant

[PA Reb]

I don't understand why you are blaming us breeders...you have admitted that you don't want to buy from a mill and that you are aware that the breeders who are at the top don't have the health issues you are trying to avoid. But you don't wish to pay for a quality bred dog. So all of the top breeders should just absorb the extra costs to do all the research and testing prior to breeding that is required to get a litter of high quality?

That's like saying you would like to buy a Lamborghini, but you don't want to pay more than you would for a Kia. There is a bit more R&D that goes into a hand built high performance machine then goes into a production line low end model.

High quality, sound bred lines don't come cheap. Many years of DNA research, testing for illness, identifying faults, selective breding to remove the faults from your line and culling of puppies happens before you have a good line that everyone wants to purchase. Then when you have a litter, and you have 15 buyers who seek your puppies, but the litter is only 4 dogs you should just give them out at the same price the puppy mills sell at? Sorry, that just isn't going to happen.

Think what you want about the AKC ruining breeds, but know what you are talking about before you make your statements. AKC is in it for a number of reasons, including the money, but the number one reason is to look out for the breed. Health is the primary issue there, and much of the funding for that research comes from the AKC and the National Club for each breed. Many health research projects are in place to eliminate issues that are breed specific and canine general.

Rescue is your answer. Many high quality dogs go to rescue for any number of reasons. Maybe a military person is getting shipped out and can't keep his/her dog, divorce in the family forces them to place their dog, death of the dogs owner, etc. I can tell you that the high quality dogs aren't at the pound very often and when they show up there, they go very fast. Rescue will pre-screen you and help you find the right dog for your stated purpose. Call your local rescue for the breed you like, they will help you out and may even be aware of a breeder who has a older show dog that needs to be placed. I know how you feel, it is expensive, but please don't blame the breeders who are trying to improve the breed and watch over it so the mills don't destroy the quality of the dogs that we have. Have a bit of patience - you will find the right dog, just don't rush into anything and allow others the time to help you.

Pete

I don't believe I made any statement against the AKC especially anything about them "ruining breeds." My main goal is to some day be able to breed one litter of rottweiler puppies as close to the breed standard as possible and as free from disease / hereditary issues as possible. Having owned rottweilers and dobermans for over forty years now, I also believe I know a little about what I'm talking about at least as far as those two breeds go. That said, I do stay away from puppy mills as well as mom and pop back yard breeders for very simplistic reasons. Rescue (I own a rescued doberman right now) is also a great idea but won't work for what I want to do. I've had three U.S. breeders tell me in the last two weeks that the price on their pups was $3K or more ($1K to $1.5K for pet quality with limited AKC registration meaning they can't be bred for AKC registration) and then one of them wanted another $600 to ship the animal. I know for a fact that a pup can be shipped anywhere in the lower 48 for $300 or a little less. To me, that's no different than companies that charge extreme amounts for shipping and handling of a product which amounts to nothing more than increasing their profit margin and ripping off the consumer. My complaint is not aimed at all the breeders out there but there seems to be way too many pushing prices to astronomical levels these days. If I'm reading all this correctly, maybe the people willing to pay these prices are other breeders / show people and its created a big circle with the "little guy" out of the picture. If I was a breeder or a person that showed dogs and was then able to turn around and sell pups for big dollars to another breeder / show person, then I could see paying big dollars for the right animal. But again, the little guy is out of the game. In the end, I have no problem paying a premium for a quality dog but $3K to $5K or more is crazy whether or not there are two pups or ten in the litter.

 

[gdauth]

I have owned Siberian Huskies for over 30 years, i currently have two sisters from the same litter. I got them from a breeder who bred them for show. After they retired the dogs and they had a litter of pups, the breeder would look for good homes for them. My girls are 9 years old and in good health. The breeder gave me both dogs. Some breeders who care about the dogs will do this. Siberians often end up in shelters because they are not for everyone, they blow their coats twice a year and require a lot of attention and exercise. They are runners and cannot be off leash.

 

[walter o]

We are on our 6th Collie in 40 years 1st one from a local pet store ,the dog was 2 yrs old turned in by an airforce recruiter ,2-5 were bought from a breeder that we became friends with and taught us about the breed. after the last one passed it took me 1yr to finally want another dog .Yes it is another Collie from a collie rescue service . Their are GREAT breeders and dog breeders .Don't get the two mixed up .Yes they breed for different reasons some their own profit and some to improve the breed . You can't be in a rush to pick a lifelong companion.
Get to know the breeder the dog's ancestry and show potential. look for breeders that have non show quality dogs or dogs that they can't show.They will sell at a reduced price .But as our breeder friend would say" I make people pay something because when you pay for something you usually take care of it"

 

[A10]

I have owned Siberian Huskies for over 30 years, i currently have two sisters from the same litter. I got them from a breeder who bred them for show. After they retired the dogs and they had a litter of pups, the breeder would look for good homes for them. My girls are 9 years old and in good health. The breeder gave me both dogs. Some breeders who care about the dogs will do this. Siberians often end up in shelters because they are not for everyone, they blow their coats twice a year and require a lot of attention and exercise. They are runners and cannot be off leash.

Yup, had one when I was a kid.....he was incredibly smart, and a fairly good bird dog! He'd flush or point, but never would retrieve.....

 

[model70hunter]

I think of dogs like any other tool. Get the right tool for the job.

If you're looking for a great pet and breed isn't part of the question do a little home work, go to your local shelter and choose very wisely. Be very aware that dogs in the shelter are there for a reason. It might be a great dog and it might also be a complete nightmare.

If your looking for a pure breed for show then do lots of homework, pick your breeder very carefully.

I'm a grouse hunter. My needs are pretty specific when it comes to a bird dog. it needs to point, have stamina to hunt day after day, it needs to be biddable, it needs to work at reasonable range, natural retrieving is nice, it must have a coat that will protect it in the brush and thorns, it must be okay in the house, etc. So I do lots of homework, study breeders, get referrals and then hope I pick well when getting a pup.

Strange I took grief for not getting a shelter dogs the last two times I got pups. People look at me in like I'm from Mars when I tell them you don't often find great bird dogs at the shelter. No one takes a great bird dog the shelter. Worse a lot of shelters won't adopt out if you tell them you're going to use a dog for hunting cause were animal killers.

Beautiful dogs.

I've had a few bird dogs. Got into duck hunting and it's been labs ever since.

One has to be careful, if you want a hunting dog find the right breeder. Years ago I learned the hard way, There are Labs for the show ring, there are lab guide dogs, bomb/drug smelling ones, Field trial ones, pointing labs and labs that are from hunting stock. I gave a couple away as pets when I was trying to replace a great one that passed. Show ring stuff, then when the recipient who was getting a great pet for their kids wanted the papers with it I said nope, this dog is now unregisterable, good pet yes, hunter-NO, he's out of the gene pool.

 

[PA Reb]

Maybe A Happy Ending

After extensive searching, I found a woman who lives about 20 miles from me that has a litter of AKC registered rottweiler pups for sale. The pup's parents are both champion sired and they are gorgeous. And, to top it all off, she's is willing to sell me the pick of the litter female with full breeding rights for $1K which is a more than reasonable price. When I looked at the litter of eight puppies, each one looked to me to be of show quality or at the very least, close to it. Both parents, although never shown, most definitely could have been. No, the parents don't have ten titles after their names but the grandparents certainly do. Tails docked, dew claws removed, shots, worming, vet checked, health guarantee - its all there and done. This got me to thinking though - how can this lady sell quality pups like this at a third or more of the price most other "top breeders" are selling for (my original rant)? Makes one wonder and seems to prove my original point! If everything goes as planned, I'll have a litter for sale in a few years and I'll give all interested parties the price break I never got until today!

 

[Pete99004]

Good for you, this sounds promising for you.

Please don't forget to check that all the parents were tested and genetically cleared for all the genetic issues that are related to this breed and they will provide you with all of the appropriate documentation - along with a health guarantee and a sale contract which states this bitch is yours for breeding purposes and outlines what conditions (if any) are required of you and what your responsibilities are. A simple yes the parents were tested from the breeder is not a good answer, you want to know what tests specifically were done.

Here is a good web page that will give you a starting place to research all of the genetic issues that I'm sure you already know about and maybe a couple your not aware of

Rottweiler Health Foundation - Rottweiler Health Issues

You will also want to know if any of the parents siblings have had seizures or any other health ailments. If the parents are "cleared and clean" and the parents litter mates have not had any outside health issues, you may have found a dog. Don't forget to ask about other dogs down in the line as some issues will skip a generation or two. Hopefully the breeder has been doing this for many years and can give you a very detailed health history of the full line. If so you've probably found a good breeder, if not, well then you may want to continue your search.

Do your research - if you want to be a good breeder yourself, then you need to know all there is to know about your breed and be as informed or more informed then the breeder you dealing with. Problems happen when people jump into a purchase without being fully informed.

Remember know your breed:

Rottweiler Health Foundation - Rottweiler Health Issues

Best to you.

Pete

 

[cowart]

We sell pure bred dogs of a different breed via this website:

Puppies for Sale, Dogs for Sale and Dog Breeders

The main advantage of this site is that you can search just your own state for breeders, and that there is information about the breeders as well as the dogs. The breeders have to pay a fee to advertise each specific dog, which may help to weed out some of the puppy mills. But be wary of the dogs with unusually low asking prices - there is probably a reason for that.

 

[PA Reb]

We sell pure bred dogs of a different breed via this website:

Puppies for Sale, Dogs for Sale and Dog Breeders

The main advantage of this site is that you can search just your own state for breeders, and that there is information about the breeders as well as the dogs. The breeders have to pay a fee to advertise each specific dog, which may help to weed out some of the puppy mills. But be wary of the dogs with unusually low asking prices - there is probably a reason for that.

Yes sir, that's a site that I've searched through many times and it has a mixture of both good and bad. You're also right to beware of the unusually low asking prices because when one does a search for rottweilers in PA., the biggest majority of those pups are from the "mills" that are for the most part located in a specific area of this state. They are usually nice people selling but they only have one goal in mind - breed as often as possible and make as much money as possible. Since they they breed their females like rabbits and also keep their prices low, they probably do make a lot of money. I feel sorry for the females in these so called kennels that are bred over and over to the point that its downright dangerous for the dog. That said, I agree with you - buyer beware.

 

[Len]

What a great thread, on a topic near and dear to my heart.

Some random observations, from a guy who can't be without a dog, and spends a lot of time in obedience and field trials.

Dog training is my number one thing to do. It takes the idea of owning a dog into the much higher level of working together with a dog and elevating the human canine bond to almost magically rewarding levels! My parameters for finding a dog are:

• They have to be AKC dogs [labs] in order to compete in sanctioned events. I know, I don't always like that rule, but it is what it is.
• I have to get them at exactly the correct age, when they are ready to switch from dog/dog bonding to a readiness for dog/human bonding. For me, I find the magic number is seven weeks.
• I temper test the puppies, and rely heavily on breeder input.
• I tend to go for field lab breeders rather than show....over the years, I've found their dogs to be hardier, healthier and less prone to congenital issues. [no proof, just the way it seemed to me]

I know my list is pretty picky, but I'm talking a responsible, lifelong obligation to the dogs that I bring home...they come home to us forever, whether they "work out" or not. They earn the right to become part of the family.


Now the down side of going purebred:

• The prices are quite "sporty" to say the least. And price is no guarantee of quality. All the people mentioning doing a check on the breeder are spot on!
• Some purebred lines still have congenital health problems specific to a breed, and they have not been "bred out" yet. I've found that generally speaking, mutts are healthier than purebreds. Just my unscientific observation over the last 30 years.
• A lot of breeders will let you pay top dollar for their dogs, and won't tell you until you're writing the check that you cannot breed them, ever, and they will withhold the registration until they have proof of neutering. [I have no problem with breeders protecting the kennel's reputation and the line of the dogs, but not at full price with a late disclosure! If you don't want your dogs bred, say so, and give a discount!]
• Along the same lines, it's hard to be able to select a dog you like, no matter what the price. It is difficult to be the first person to look at a litter, who is willing to pay the top, going price, only to have the litter already culled by the breeder because you're not a "serious" owner....because you have no intentions of entering the conformation show ring.
• The show standards for many AKC dogs are quite interesting for some breeds. Ever notice when you see a lab in the ring, how chunky they look? The AKC types like 'em heavy it seems. A real lab, to me anyway, is much more athletic looking than what you see in the shows.

And the biggest down side to all this is that when I look for an AKC dog to compete, the pound dogs and rescues are there, ready and waiting for a good home, a safe and happy life.


So, for me and my house, the rule is for every AKC dog that come into the house, after his training has commenced, we go bring a pound dog home.


The pound dog gets every bit of training and bonding that all the other dogs get, they share the couch and the spot in front of the fire with the rest of the dogs....and they and the their brother and sister dogs don't care about the papers at all!


Nice conversation guys, it's been a fun read so far!


Len

 

[shouldazagged]

I watched "Mail Call" last night and Ermey narrated a piece on military dogs, including the legendary Sgt. Stubby from WWI. I noticed in the section on WWII and, I think, Vietnam service dogs that the German shepherds had level backs. Does anyone know when and why they started being bred for the sloping back? I have to say that the ones I remember seeing all my life until recently looked stronger and tougher with their hindquarters on roughly the same level as the front end.

 

[Doug M.]

That is some relatively recent fetish in the US, and from what I recall, not a good thing. Since it is not my area of interest, relying on my memory is not sure to be a good thing.

 

[shouldazagged]

That is some relatively recent fetish in the US, and from what I recall, not a good thing. Since it is not my area of interest, relying on my memory is not sure to be a good thing.

I find it hard to believe it could be a good thing for any kind of working dog, including one on home protection duty. It looks as if it would reduce the strength in the dog's propulsion unit. But heaven knows I'm no expert.

 

[Ranger514]

Based on our experience, rescues are the way to go. My wife and I started out with a pair of JRT of America registered Jack Russell Terriers 18 years ago. We researched breeders before we chose. Both were great dogs, and expensive. After losing one to an auto immune disease and the other to age, we opted for rescue dogs, and have been happy with that decision ever since. Our latest family addition is a 5 year old rescue black lab that was given up to the local shelter by a service man who had to relocate to a new posting. Sammy gets to run in the woods, play with our other rescue mutt, and sleep on the bed when he isn't relaxing on his doggie pillow next to the fire. When I'm outside working, he'll stay with me for 10 or 15 minutes, then disappear to check on my wife and make sure she's okay before he comes running back to check in with me.

 

[PA Reb]

Based on our experience, rescues are the way to go. My wife and I started out with a pair of JRT of America registered Jack Russell Terriers 18 years ago. We researched breeders before we chose. Both were great dogs, and expensive. After losing one to an auto immune disease and the other to age, we opted for rescue dogs, and have been happy with that decision ever since. Our latest family addition is a 5 year old rescue black lab that was given up to the local shelter by a service man who had to relocate to a new posting. Sammy gets to run in the woods, play with our other rescue mutt, and sleep on the bed when he isn't relaxing on his doggie pillow next to the fire. When I'm outside working, he'll stay with me for 10 or 15 minutes, then disappear to check on my wife and make sure she's okay before he comes running back to check in with me.

That's a wonderful rescue story and you should be both praised and proud. I have a rescued doberman here and have rescued many dogs over the years that have made great pets. Options change however when one is looking for a dog to train for the AKC conformation ring or the German style Sieger shows geared towards working dog competition. Both are completely different in nature but both require the dog to be registered with either the AKC or ADRK. Both also have different requirements such as for rottweilers in the AKC ring, they must have their tails docked (although that is starting to change a little) whereas in the Sieger competition which follows German ADRK rules, the dog (and the tail) must be natural. It would be very difficult if not impossible to get a dog that is suitable for these competitions in a rescue kennel. Then, as the titles before and after the name grow, so does the price of their offspring!

As I stated above, I found a lady with some pretty good rottweilers that is selling them at a reasonable price. When we went to see the pups that were still available from the litter, I put money down on a gorgeous little female. She also had a cute little male there from the same litter that was born with a very short and useless front leg (he has no control of it). In Germany, this pup would have immediately been culled at birth with no questions asked. The lady kept him in the hopes of finding him a good home as he does get around pretty good on three legs. When my wife and I left, we didn't talk much about the pup we chose but we did talk a lot about that little male. It looks a little to me like we may end up with the purchase of a top notch female along with a rescued pup because he fell in love with my wife and she him!