Reply from S&W re: +P+ ammo

[bfayer]

Back to the manufacturer's liability for a moment.

The ammo manufacturer has a lot at stake if they supply a cartridge that results injury to the shooter.

Winchester / Olin is a reputable company, and it seems unlikely to me that they would sell a 9mm round that would cause a commonly used law enforcement gun like an M&P 9c to fail catastrophically -- at least without all kinds of written warnings.

Perhaps they would, however, sell a round that results in increased wear and tear and higher maintenance if used constantly.

Since the ammo manufacture knows the pressure of their own ammo they are in a position to make a responsible judgement on the relative safety of a given round in a given firearm.

The weapon manufacture has no idea what the pressure of a +P+ is because there is no industry standard. There is no SAAMI standard, there us no U.S military standard, there is no NATO standard.

The fact is +P+ is a made up marketing term that could mean anything. Its like "new and improved" or "rich Corinthian leather".

How can a firearm manufacture say their firearms can handle +P+ when no one knows what it means? They can't.

My point is if you want to know if a non standard round will work in a particular gun, you go to the people that made the ammo not the people that made the gun, cause the guys that made the gun are going to say don't use it just about every time.

 

[CW3RDL]

Remember that the first large scale use of WW 115 grain +P+ JHP was the Illinois State Police in (of all things) the original S&W Model 39. They shot lots of it after they found it was the only thing that worked most of the time from that gun. In fact, the unofficial name of the 115 grain +p+ JHP is the "Illinois State Police load". The M39 was replace with the S&W M439 in 1981 and then the M459 about 1988, using the same ammo or a bid replacement from Federal or Remington.

 

[DocSunShine]

In the year 2013 I'm baffled why any law enforcement agency issues 115 grain loads in 9mm. Much better options out there and almost all subject matter experts in the world recommend heavy or at least medium grain for caliber standard pressure rounds.

 

[flintsghost]

The 9mm +P+ loads that I have tried were Federal 124 and 147 grain. The Federal boxes state right on them..."For Law Enforcement use only"....and I would assume that is because they don't think an agency would file a lawsuit. While I have never shot them in a S&W, I have shot them in both SIG and H&K pistols. They didn't show signs of over pressure but did flatten out the primers more than a standard 9mm +P would. I still have a few boxes of the stuff. It is also not the most accurate ammo I've used in 9mm. If I carried one of my larger 9mm's for some reason I might use it. But the only 9mm that I do occasionally carry is a Rohrbaugh R9S and it's not even rated for +P. In fact it is so small and lightly made that the maker specifically states that you need to insure that no +P is used in it.

I seem to recall that the original 9mm +P+ rounds were loaded for the FBI, by Federal, right after their 10mm episode because they were looking for a better 9mm when they called all the 1076's in. I suspect if one does the research in the older FBI Ballistic Testing books, the +P+ rounds will be found and pressures and test data could then be found.

 

[MP1SG]

Jesus Mary and Joseph
All he asked was if the +P+ rounds was safe to use in his M&P some 40 post later we come to this.
Personally I believe that the 25 rounds of +P+ he shoots once a year will be fine. S&W is simply covering the butts by making the statement about +P+ rounds As stated in a prior post the Illonis Stape Police have used +P+ rounds for years.

Lastly and I have NOTHING to base this on other than ammo test video (TNOutdoors9) the 127 +P+ under penetrates and fails to expand (at least the videos that I have seen) The top performer seems to be the Speer Gold 124 grain +P and the Federal HST 124 grain +P. Both of these rounds are extremely accurate and reliable in my Shield 9mm.

1SG
Out