Request Advice for New Purchase

[BlueMike]

Great forum...I've been lurking and learning a lot over the last few months and am now ready to buy a new S&W revolver. I grew up shooting revolvers and then moved to predominately semi autos during my military years, but for a number of reasons I am ready to return to revolvers. I would like to purchase one within the next couple months. I know a lot of you have already been through this process so I am seeking to learn from your experiences. Here are my initial thoughts and questions.

I am searching for a multipurpose gun with the following requirements:

1. My main CCW...must be easy to carry. I prefer pocket carry, but would be willing to carry OWB if it meets other requirements. Must be a good, accurate shooter with a good front sight as my eyes are not what they used to be and not getting going to get better. I prefer 3" barrels, but would listen to other options.
2. Range time...I like to shoot my handguns. This gun would spend a lot of time on the range; therefore, it should be very reliable, comfortable to shoot, and accurate at short/mid ranges.
3. Woods carry...I spend a lot of time in the woods and would like to have firepower available (357 magnum or better) when needed.

Options that meet my requirements as I see them so far:

1. Purchase a new J-frame, Model 60, before the end of the year to take advantage of the $50 rebate. Pros: I really like the new Model 60 Pro and a $50 rebate is nice. It has good sights and seems to be a good shooter with 357 capability. I would have the life-time warranty. Cons: Not a good pocket carry with 3" barrel, but can carry OWB. I have seen several, from the factory, new models with poor quality issues. Does S&W have quality control issues with their current models? Also, is S&W using the the $50 rebate to get rid of the in-stock, unpopular, "lock" frames before transitioning to new "no-lock" models? I would hate to spend this much on a 2010, Model 60 (with an unpopular lock) only to have them come out with "no-lock" Model 60s in 2011.
2. Search for an older (no lock/MIM) J-frame (Model 60/36). Pros: The older models seem to be higher quality/better made. Cons: No warranty for a gun that will be do a lot of shooting. How much is the warranty really worth?
3. Purchase an older (no lock/MIM) K-frame (Model 66/19). Pros: The 3" K-frames really fit my hand and shooting style. Seem to be much better on the range with better 357 magnum options. Cons: Same as #2 above.

This post is getting too long already, so I'll stop and see where it goes. Bottom-line, it all comes down to J-frame versus K-frame and new versus old model. Plus, I don't want to get "stuck" with an unpopular 2010 Model 60 that doesn't hold it's value. Am I missing something? Is there something else to consider?

Thanks so much for all your time and I look forward to hearing your views.

 

[MakeMyNight]

You may want to read this thread before a purchase.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/162142-more-no-lock-revolvers-coming.html

FWIW: if You're going to range shoot the revolver frequently, You may want to invest in a short barreled K or L frame .357, if only because those pieces can take a beating.
J frames are sweet carry guns, but I'd wager the K&L's are more durable.

I'm kind of partial to pre-lock, stainless Smiths with factory wood grips, though I love the older P&R blued models as well.

My advice would be to acquire a model 60 or similar for carry, and buy a 6" barreled S&W 586/686 for range use.

 

[BlueMike]

Thanks MakeMyNight!

That previous thread you suggested is what got me nervous about buying a new Model 60 with the lock.

I have thought about going the 2 gun route and that may happen yet, but I wanted to hear other views.

Thanks again.

 

[Dump1567]

Pocket carry probably won't be confortable with anything except an air weight. Which isn't going to make a very comfortable shooter. Especially in .357 mag.

I say pick-up a no lock 442 or 642 and put on on light weight grips for pocket carry. Than buy a nice used 4" K or L frame .357 for shooting/ woods carry.

These two guns should run you in the $900 range or less combined.

 

[Old cop]

You cannot beat the lightweight J's for pocket carry, but stay away from the scandium frame .357. Too expensive for what you get (IMO) and too many limitations on bullet weights.

I carry my J model 638 and shoot it often with regular pressure loads. I put on a set of Pachmayer rubber grips for the range to save my hands, but use the small wood grips for carry. It should outlast me at that rate (I'm 60+), but you probably cannot get what you're looking for in one gun. As to the internal lock thing I've had no problems with the 638 and have put enough +P through it to be satisfied it will lock up accidently.

Best of luck. I have a preference for the J's (no scandium) and believe they can fill the role for you.

 

[scooter123]

IMO your selection list has a lot of conflicts.

1) Pocket carry and range use aren't compatable. The featherweights are punishing even with 38 spl. and the steel J frames are heavy enough that they'll be rather obvious in a pocket. I would suggest that you either forget pocket carry and get a good IWB holster or consider 2 guns. Personally, I would go with IWB carry.

2) Range time and the 357 Magnum. Even a somewhat "lite" range load like a 1200 fps 158 grain American Eagle SJSP is pretty stout in a 38 ounce 4 inch 686. In a 24 ounce model 60 you won't enjoy much range time with the Magnums, you'll be done in 15 or 20 rounds. I would suggest that you consider something like the 686 as a second gun. Yeah, it's heavier but a lot more enjoyable to shoot. It's also not bad to carry in a good OWB holster as a woods gun.

Another, somewhat heavier choice would be a 625 in 45 ACP. With that choice you get the advantage of moon clips, a caliber with good balace between recoil and power, and a caliber that is currently a lot easier to find than either 38 spl. or 357 Magnum in my area.

3) Aging eyes. I've now hit the point where I cannot focus on the sights of a handgun at most indoor ranges. At an outdoor range this isn't an issue, however the closest outdoor range is a 40 mile drive and I have 3 indoor ranges within 12 miles. I've now equipped 3 of my revolvers with J Point reflex sights and they are "the bomb" for shooting small groups. Downside is that I've lost some proficiency for shooting with fuzzy irons, so I'm currently cutting back on the wheelguns with the reflex sights and spending more time with irons. However, I can see the day coming when I'm either going to have to go all reflex or get real good at point shooting. If you're interested it a reflex sight, following is a link to my report on the J Point.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/155300-purchased-2-more-j-point-reflex-sights-range-report.html

 

[BlueMike]

Thanks for all the comments. I knew it would be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve all my goals with one gun, but I wanted to see what more experienced revolver folks had to say.

In reply to a couple post comments:

1. I agree that a two gun solution would be the best fit and that may happen yet.
2. I totally agree that pocket carry and range use don't mix. I am happy to consider OWB or IWB (forgetting pocket carry) to get a better range gun. I already have other pocket carry semi autos.
3. I don't plan to shoot 357 during range time, but still would like to have it available if needed...mostly for woods carry situations. FYI...I think (for me) the 686 is just too heavy for all-day woods carry, even in a good OWB holster. I think I would be much more comfortable carrying a K-frame.
4. Thanks to "scooter123" for the post about J-Point sights. That is very useful and something I didn't know existed. I will look into this further.

What do you all think?

1. Is S&W quality control still up to standards?
2. Is the Model 60 (no lock) going to come out next year and make the "lock" models less desirable?

Thanks again guys...this is a fun process to go through. As my Grandfather says, "Them is rich man problems."

 

[scooter123]

Opinions will vary of course, but with a good belt and holster I don't believe that a 3 or 4 inch 686 will be much of a burden for woods carry. There are quite a few residents of Alaska who spend a lot of time out in the backwoods with a much larger and heavier 460 or 500 Magnum. Another option that might be more comfortable is a shoulder holster, however fit is critical for comfort and they are more expensive.

As for S&W's quality, I've spent a long time in manufacturing and my experience that Quality is always in a constant state of flux. The good news is that the trend line has been in a constantly upwards direction. On a trend basis, I expect the quality of S&W's revolvers is better than it ever has been. However, in immediate terms I can also tell you that when demand spikes quality always takes a hit. To put it simply, when your products are on backorder you will push product out the door that would be rejected if the demand was lower. I'll also note that this drop is normally temporary and gets sorted out when the demand falls in line with capacity or money is spent on expanding capacity to meet that demand. IMO S&W's quality probably took a dip in 2008 and they are just now getting back to leveling out production and demand, which means that quality will be getting back on track. BTW, I base this on the scouting I do of the gun distributors that post their inventory levels on the net, for the first time in two years I'm seeing those stocks rising and far fewer out of stock models.

I'll also report that I've purchased a 2008 production 620 and 2009 production 610 and have nothing at all to complain about with either gun. Both were very well made, finished, and have functioned perfectly. So, while some clunkers did make it out of the factory IMO the total number of klunkers is probably pretty darned low. The simple truth is the S&W loses money on every single gun that is returned for service under warranty, the shipping costs aren't cheap and the margin per gun produced is probably less that 40 or 50 bucks.

Bottomline, I think you'll be quite safe purchasing a new S&W but can't guarantee it. The simple fact is that stuff happens. It's why we have warranties, perfection is a goal that won't ever actually be achieved.

As for the lock, IMO a no lock model 60 is doubtful. The model 60 has enough mass that the lock probably isn't an issue with 38 spl. or 38 +P and the incident rate with 357 Magnums is probably fairly low. However, it's so easy to remove that I would just take it out and store it. In something heavier such as a 686, I wouldn't worry about it, the detent spring would have to be missing or broken for it to malfunction. In addition, if you have grandkids visiting, it is an additional layer of protection against curious explorers.

 

[BlueMike]

Thanks again to "scooter123"...you make some excellent points and give me more to consider. I really appreciate the time you guys take educate us non-revolver guys.

At this point I am leaning towards the Model 60 Pro as a first buy. I think it is closest to an all-purpose type of revolver that I have found. While I would love to have an older Model 60 without the lock, they are few and far between around my area and expensive to boot. I think, that in itself, may tell us how much they are valued by their owners.

In the long term, I think I will try to find a classic L or N-frame to meet my other needs. There are so many classic S&W revolvers out there and so little time to search.