S&W Factory Horror story

[Amici]

Amici,

In reading the OP, this really is what this is all about. The Frame recieved a new Serial Number. That was the reason for the gun being sent to a FFL. It is basically now considered the same as any new gun transfer.

PERHAPS. That distinction was NOT made in the post in question, however, which was NOT the OP's. Note this part:

While there is no transfer/change of ownership, the context of my post relates to them having to put the gun on their books, i.e., if you wait and they can repair and hand back I'd believe there would be no need to log in or out. Since this lapsed over time, they had to put it on thier books, and then had to transfer out again. This is now an area where, I believe, an FFL holder has an issue, they cannot simply transfer to someone from another state, that just happens to be physically in their state. I'll let FFL holders speak to this, whether true or not, and whether or not there is a workaround.

Again, NO reference to a new serial number (which would absolutely require an FFL, as it is a new firearm under Federal law). Rather, the poster predicates the alleged necessity of an FFL solely upon whether the gunowner waited for the repair.

The gun is logged in when received - period. It is logged out when it is returned - period. So long as the gun is returned to the owner, there is no need for an FFL to act as intermediary.

 

[TonyR]

Although I brought the gun to the factory in person, I never expected to get it back the same day for a frame repair. I was in CT for a month and explained that to the service rep. on the phone. I was told that the new frame would be numbered as the old one and that I could pick it up. I have carry papers as a retired law enforcement officer and could legally carry in Mass. It became an issue when the serial number was changed and I understand that.What I don't understand is the poor quality of work, and the fact that they did not do what the said they would do. And I did not expect the guns parts to fall out after 10 rounds. End of story.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

With service like that, I guess I can see why they don't want people carrying guns into their factory.

 

[sw282]

I have 2 Smiths with locks. One is a 629 Mountain Gun. The other a Mod 24 3" Lew Horton purchased used off the net They shoot just fine and the actions are very smooth. I just seem to have a mental block about those locks and cast triggers/hammers. These were the first Smiths I had bought in maybe 20 years. In fact I didnt even know these things existed on pistols. A lock on a gun??? Locks are for doors, cars, safes. These 2 purchases were the beginning of a reunion with Smith revolvers after a long dry spell due in part to the Clinton/Smith episode and a fling with auto loaders. I have since purchased other Smith revolvers. The later purchases were all older pinned revolvers. Thats the way I intend to keep it. I do have a Model 19 at the factory being rebuilt/refinished. I will be following it as closely as they allow.

 

[gunlovingirl]

PERHAPS. That distinction was NOT made in the post in question, however, which was NOT the OP's. Note this part:



Again, NO reference to a new serial number (which would absolutely require an FFL, as it is a new firearm under Federal law). Rather, the poster predicates the alleged necessity of an FFL solely upon whether the gunowner waited for the repair.

The gun is logged in when received - period. It is logged out when it is returned - period. So long as the gun is returned to the owner, there is no need for an FFL to act as intermediary.

From OP...
"...it received a new serial number.It was no longer possible to pick up the gun, instead it would have to go to a FL FFL of my choice and be re-registered as a new gun."

 

[Amici]

From OP...
"...it received a new serial number.It was no longer possible to pick up the gun, instead it would have to go to a FL FFL of my choice and be re-registered as a new gun."

The OP was not who I quoted; SmithNut was.

 

[Chop]

I have sent a couple of Smiths to the factory for re-finish and was very pleased with the work, I sent them in by UPS and they returned them to my house.
When I lived in Atlanta I took a Glock 23 into the Glock factory and had some repairs made and night sights installed while I waited. I returned a few months later and had a different Glock 23 changed over to the new style green frame. Because it got a new serial # I had to leave it and they returned it to my FFL. Chop

 

[SmithNut]

The OP was not who I quoted; SmithNut was.

Amici,
I'm not sure what the problem is here, the discussion was related to whether or not an FFL holder (in this case the manufacturer) was able to transfer a handgun back to someone from a different state. I'm going from my limited experience on this. If you have statute that you can cite that offers an alternative suggestion, I'd love to see it as well.
My discussion here is meant to offer some potential explanation as to why the factory "had" to send this back via an ffl, which was represented in the OP's post.
If you would kindly verify what the real question is that you are addressing to me, I'd be glad to respond, my comments have all been caveated with the "I'm not an ffl holder" aspect, just what I've learned or overheard in hanging around a couple gunstores over the years.
The laws have changed over the years and this format is hopefully meant to offer our experiences and reasons why things happen the way they do.

 

[TonyR]

My intent in the post was to let people know of my personal factory experience and the quality of work or lack there of, not to start a revolution or cause hard feelings among members. There were however some interesting posts, as always thanks for your comments. TonyR

 

[gizamo]

Guess everyone here should take note that this S&W story is located in a very tough State...Massachusetts. They have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the Country. There is even a approved list of what guns can be legally brought into the State. I have tried to ship guns to my Brother, and am completely amazed at what is not allowed to be brought in.

S&W has to operate in MA and must be vary concious of the copious laws and restrictions.

giz

 

[Amici]

Amici,
I'm not sure what the problem is here, the discussion was related to whether or not an FFL holder (in this case the manufacturer) was able to transfer a handgun back to someone from a different state. I'm going from my limited experience on this. If you have statute that you can cite that offers an alternative suggestion, I'd love to see it as well.
My discussion here is meant to offer some potential explanation as to why the factory "had" to send this back via an ffl, which was represented in the OP's post.
If you would kindly verify what the real question is that you are addressing to me, I'd be glad to respond, my comments have all been caveated with the "I'm not an ffl holder" aspect, just what I've learned or overheard in hanging around a couple gunstores over the years.
The laws have changed over the years and this format is hopefully meant to offer our experiences and reasons why things happen the way they do.

Not so much a "problem" as an apparent overstatement.

That a factory cannot return a gun directly to its owner WHEN IT HAS CHANGED THE GUN'S SERIAL NUMBER is not it dispute. However, what I quoted from your post does not say that.

You said that a manufacturer cannot return the gun directly to its owner when that owner is in another state. That is not correct. Here's YOUR statement:

While there is no transfer/change of ownership, the context of my post relates to them having to put the gun on their books, i.e., if you wait and they can repair and hand back I'd believe there would be no need to log in or out. Since this lapsed over time, they had to put it on thier books, and then had to transfer out again. This is now an area where, I believe, an FFL holder has an issue, they cannot simply transfer to someone from another state, that just happens to be physically in their state.

There is no "transfer." At all relevant times the gun was the legal property of its owner, including when being repaired. It is perfectly legal for the factory or gunsmith working on that gun to return it DIRECTLY to that owner.

Not a fight, not a feud, simply a clarification.

 

[Amici]

Guess everyone here should take note that this S&W story is located in a very tough State...Massachusetts. They have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the Country. There is even a approved list of what guns can be legally brought into the State.

Not quite true.

First, the restrictions apply to HANDGUNS and "assault weapons." Period.

Second, the restrictions on handguns do NOT affect "what guns can be legally brought into the tate;" ONLY what dealers can sell to RESIDENTS of MA. Want to move to MA with your guns? Bring them - IF there are no post-ban "large capacity" mags and no post ban "assault weapons" (bayo lug, flash hider, etc.).

This means the factory store can only sell Mass-approved handguns and the compliant version of its M&P 15 to Mass residents. It does NOT mean customer service cannot return a gun sent in for repair back to its out-of-state owner.

Mass laws are onerous enough without adding to them.

 

[Revolver King]

Tell Sarah we love her. She has more character in her little finger than all the rest of the politicians combined! God bless America!

There is one thing here I agree with totally,(above) as far as S&W customer service, it appears to be a potluck thing. And that is too bad.

 

[gizamo]

Amici,

Having a bad hair day?

Smithnut is a heck of a guy and has for many years tried to put forward positive posts to the folks here, in a helpful and encouraging manner. He's one of the most knowledgeable S&W collectors I know. Basically a good guy that shouldn't have you unload on him.

What's your point in continually hammering on him? The OP said that the gun frame has been stamped with a new Serial Number. There is nothing worth arguing about.


Can we end your rehashing of this, it's already gone on for for 3 pages....?????



giz

 

[Amici]

Smithnut is a heck of a guy and has for many years tried to put forward positive posts to the folks here, in a helpful and encouraging manner. He's one of the most knowledgeable S&W collectors I know. Basically a good guy that shouldn't have you unload on him.

What's your point in continually hammering on him? The OP said that the gun frame has been stamped with a new Serial Number. There is nothing worth arguing about.


Can we end your rehashing of this, it's already gone on for for 3 pages....?????

You mistate facts and are, in fact, the only one "rehashing" this. My last post makes on the subject makes that QUITE clear:

Not a fight, not a feud, simply a clarification.

I suspect your real issue is my correction of your misstatement of Mass law.

 

[SmithNut]

Amici,
Can you cite any statutes that back up your assertion that an FFL/Gunsmith can return a gun (in this case a handgun) to someone regardless of location? I'm curious, don't know if that is accurate or not, as I have posted. Note that my post says "I believe", not that I know as 100% actual, based on previous interactions with gunsmiths in my area. I've also suggested that FFL holders weigh in, maybe you are one - if so then please clarify. I'm not here to argue or condemn, and I don't see you particularly hammering me except to make a counterpoint when no actual point was being made.
Let's see your back up so we can all learn from this discussion, afterall that's what this place is about.
If you just want to debate, I guess I'm up for it, but let me know what the issue is first so I can dialog on the same level.

 

[Amici]

No problem. Perhaps this will help, taken directly from the BATFE FAQs page:

ATF Online - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

(I7) Is a licensed gunsmith's return of repaired or customized firearms to their owners subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees?

No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also Question P24.)

[18 U.S.C. 922(d), 27 CFR 478.32(d)]


(P24) A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law? [Back]

Neither the transfer of a repaired firearm nor the transfer of a replacement firearm would be subject to the requirements of the Brady law. Furthermore, the regulations provide that a Form 4473 is not required to cover these transactions. However, the licensee's permanent acquisition and disposition records should reflect the return of the firearm or the transfer of a replacement firearm.

[27 CFR 478.124-25]

NOTE: When the Feds refer to an "unlicensed individual," they mean no FEDERAL license; i.e., NOT an FFL. Since there is no change in ownership, there is no NICS (Brady) check required and "a Form 4473 is not required."

Where, as happened to the OP, the factory failed to copy the original serial number onto the replacement frame and, instead, used an already-numbered frame, paperwork IS required because that is a new gun. This is not an issue with the normal repair or custom work.

Everyone on the same page now?

 

[Gunhacker]

Basically the problem sounds like it is how the transaction can be logged into a FFL's boundbook.

In a normal case of sending a gun in for a repair, be it the factory or a custom gunsmith, the gun would be logged into the "bound book" by serial number with the FFL # or name, address of (the non licensed party) who it was received from.

When the repair is completed, and the gun is sent back, then the "disposition" side of the bound book entry for the gun is completed, showing that it was sent back to the same party that they received it from. That would pass the snicker test in a BATFE compliance inspection, as it clearly shows that the transaction was in compliance with 27 CFR 478.124-25.

But now we have the case where the S/N of the OP's gun was changed to a different one. In order to legally dispose of it, an FFL would need to enter it into their bound book and show the disposition of who it was sent to and since it would be a new line entry, due to the new SN... there would be a problem sending it back to a non-licensed party because the new line entry would need to treated like a normal (new gun) disposition, which must be sent to an FFL. Unlike the previous entry example, there is nothing to show that it was first originally received from an unlicensed person in order to be able to ship it back directly to them.

Now what complexity (hoops) that an FFL also has to jump through at state level is a whole other matter.... I'm not so sure MA still holds the title for having some of the most restrictive gun laws in the Country... here in California, it feels like we've caught up to and passed MA.

Having a C&R FFL has made me acutely aware of the narrow line that can exist between what's legal and illegal... sometimes it comes down to how a single word is or can be interpreted in a statue, and if the law is written vaguely, oh man... what a PIA it is in getting a uniform interpretation/application of it when dealing with different FFL dealers.

People can debate a regulation until the cow's come home but the bottom line is how it will be interpreted and enforced by an agent (Federal or State) while conducting a bound book compliance inspection, and most FFL's will default to the most cautious approach, even if it is not warranted.

Conrad

 

[5Wire]

...There is a provision for a factory repair to be shipped directly back to an owner's address without the need for an FFL, but I believe (not sure, someone would need to confirm) the original shipment of the gun would have to come directly from the owner's address to be returned there. Whether or not the factory can (or would) ship a gun directly to someone that physically delivered a gun to the factory is something I cannot comment on from a legality perspective.

That's worked best for me.