S&W Model 41 Extractor Issues - one more thread

[leinster lad]

Once the pistol is field stripped = safety check, mag out, barrel off and slide off

the only other thing is to remove the grips = too easy, two screws and gently separate the two halves off the frame.

Make sure you use the correct size screw driver to avoid damage to the screw heads.

When refitting the grips, do not over tighten the two screws as you can crack the grip.
Just do them up snug. If you can feel the grips move a little when gripping firmly, do the screws up just a little more.

The two grip halves/sides locate together with a couple of pins. don't loose these.

Everything else just comes apart.
There is only one screw, and that holds the safety detent plate to the frame. Again, use the correct size screw driver. This screw can be really tight. It is a normal right hand thread.
Use the right size screw driver and locate the blade into the screw slot with good firm pressure so you don't slip and damage the head of the screw.

The hammer and sear pins just push out, no tapping required.
Actually the safety lever has the hammer pin on it, so removing the safety also removes the pin. This must be done once the hammer spring has been removed.
The mag disconnect just comes out with a twisting motion once the end of the spring is clear of the frame.

Check this links. It really is not difficult, but certainly, if you are not at all comfortable doing it, get a smith to do it.

Model 41 maintenance

and

FileFactory

 

[leinster lad]

The hammer spring can be removed very simply by simply lifting the hammer spring seat up and off the pin. Use a round punch that fits the hole in the bottom well.
Push up and out, being careful not to slip.
The frame in that area has sharp edges and you will take bark off if you slip.

 

[mikemyers]

There's this saying, "anything is easy to do, once you know how to do it". Thanks for all the advice, but this has gotten way over my "comfort zone". While I haven't done all of it yet, having watched this video ([ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMBuCJxCuB8[/ame]) I feel completely comfortable taking apart my 1911, and re-assembling it. For the Model 41, if it comes to that, I'll have my gunsmith do it for me.

Meanwhile, I plan to take the gun to the range again today and see if it is still working perfectly. The last ten rounds went through it without a glitch. I've got a new OEM spring on the way, along with the Volquartsen ejector.

You guys are telling me that the 41 has just enough energy to do everything properly. If anything starts to rub, or there's friction, or anything that wastes some of that energy, it will have ejection problems. It seems to me that a gunsmith going through it, cleaning and lubricating everything, would be a win/win situation. I've had it since the late 1970's, and it's probably due for some of this attention anyway.

What would be nice in this thread, would be if those of you have completely fixed your Model 41, if you could post a list of everything you did to it, the cured the feeding problem.

 

[mikemyers]

I did a lot more searching, and found a goldmine of very useful information, much of which I did not know here:

Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol



also....
I also found an interesting YouTube video on a S&W Model 21 here:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlATVx5ns3E[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ZjBlC_OR8[/ame]

.......and yet more information, some of which applies to our Model 41's here:

Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol


Read the information listed under "Notes".

 

[leinster lad]

Here is what got mine 100% ( mine is a 2004 Performance Centre 5.5" )

Polished the chamber and feed ramp. Dremmel/felt pad/autosol metal polish
Autosol 75ml Chrome And Metal Polish | Bunnings Warehouse

Replace extractor with Volquartsen one
$11.25

De-burred extractor spring hole and slot

Plastic Recoil buffer. $9.95 Buffer Technologies Recoil Buffer S&W 41 Polyurethane

Green fiber optic front sight Smith & Wesson 41 Performance Center Fiber Optic Sight Grn. - $43.95 : EWK Arms only suits the PC version.

Clean my ammo ( CCI SV ) (rub off excess wax)

I only use oil on mine.
Some would say that I run it quite wet. (but not dripping wet)

I also put a set of these grips on it S&W Model 41 Vitarbo Target Grips

I would guess that I have put thru at least 5000 rnds.
Springs are all original.

 

[leinster lad]

Whilst I can understand your trepidation Mike, these pistols are so simple and easy to dismantle.
Pretty sure if you can do a 1911, the M41 would be a walk in the park.

Just drop the grips,barrel and slide off and have a look. Move the trigger. insert/remove a (unloaded) mag. see how the mag release moves the trigger bar in and out of sear engagement.

Just have a bit of a play and then put the grips back on.

It will not take long before you become intimately aware of how this simple machine works.
This will lift your confidence.

Unfortunately, where I am, there are no competent smiths, so it really is just down to me and google !

 

[mikemyers]

........It will not take long before you become intimately aware of how this simple machine works.
This will lift your confidence........

That is already happening - not too long ago, I was afraid to remove the bolt. Everything's easy, once you learn how.

For better or worse, I brought along my M-41 to the range today, wondering what it would surprise me with this time, a day before the Volquartsen extractor arrives (and a week before my replacement OEM recoil spring arrives). I shot two magazines, 5 rounds each, and no issues. The gun ran just the way it used to for so many years, perfectly.

I guess to be fair, when the new parts arrive, I'm going to leave them off for now, and see if the gun really is "fixed". The only thing that is really different, is I'm using FP-10 oil. It's supposed to be excellent, but did this do the trick?

 

[leinster lad]

Mike, i would replace the extractor as a matter of course.
The original S&W extractors are a well know weak point, and as you already know how to do it, it will be easy. It is also a good opportunity to de-burr the extractor spring hole and slot if it needs it.

Once done, make sure that it aligns perfectly with the little slot that is cut into the side of the barrel. It should and there is no adjustment, but it is nice to know that it is all good.

As for the spring, meh.....
Check where your rounds are landing and decide then.

 

[mikemyers]

Rounds are landing very close to me. As I see it, a new OEM spring can't hurt, and can then be crossed off my list.

As to the Volquartsen extractor, it will definitely be installed, but I'm real curious if whatever I did "fixed" the problems. It will take more than 20 rounds to satisfy me that all is well. Maybe 200, spread over a few days.

I already tried to put the new extractor into the gun, with the old spring, and since it was still having issues, I put the original extractor back in (after rubbing both sides over a stone) along with the new spring and plunger.

Those articles I linked to mention things that haven't yet been discussed in this forum as far as I can tell. Jerry Keefer used to polish all the moving parts, which I also haven't done yet. One way or another, I'd like it to be reliable in a couple of weeks for my next match. I guess I'll bring my S&W Model 17 along for backup.


Any idea where to buy one of these, or a more modern replacement?
Menck Chamber Ironing Tool 22 Rimfire

 

[leinster lad]

Mike, if rounds are landing very close to you, as new ( i.e. stronger) spring will cause issues.

But hey, give it a go. Very easy to put the old one back in if needed.

I would def check the extractor spring hole and slot for burrs.

No idea where you would get one of theose chamber irons, but personally, i would be very careful about messing with the chamber.

If (clean) rounds drop into and fall out of a (clean) chamber I would not be touching it !!!

 

[rolandj]

I have used the chamber tool on several .22 rifles and if used per directions it does the job quite well. I used it once on a 41 and it cured it's problem. Mine paid for it self right away.

 

[mikemyers]

I don't think I need that tool, but like other tools, I'd like to have on in my toolbox in case I ever do need one.

Yes, extractor spring hole and burrs..... the first time I removed the bolt, I thought the plunger and spring were missing, which seemed impossible. I saw "something" at the bottom of the hole, and figured it was probably the plunger. After tapping the end of the slide on an aluminum block, both came flying out. Either they were trapped by "gunk", many years of accumulated oil, grease, dirt, whatever, or there was/is a burr. I cleaned the hole as best I could, and the pressure on the extractor seems fine, so it's working now - but I'd like to clean out the hole properly sometime. So far, some good advice seems to be toothpick(s) with sandpaper wrapped around them.

 

[mikemyers]

Just a short update - I received the Volquartsen extractor, but still haven't installed it. The silly gun is working flawlessly now. I'm obviously happy it's working, but I don't know what I did that "fixed" it.

I installed the new ejector spring and plunger, and put the old ejector back in. I cleaned everything I could, as well as I could. I was very sparing with the lubrication. The old recoil spring (with a kink) is still in it (I have a new S&W spring, and the spring kit from Wolff sitting in a bag).

Three times ago at the range, a round or two stuck in the barrel, then a round or two did the stovepipe trick, then it stopped doing anything wrong. I'll try it one more time tomorrow, then take it home and clean it. I'm curious if cleaning it will bring back the issues. If not, I may remove the bolt, clean that, reinstall, and check again. It will be interesting to see if the gun is still working. If so, maybe I'll disassemble again, and put in the Volquartsen ejector. I wonder if it will still continue to work?

I'm very happy it is working, but I'm frustrated because I don't know what I did to "fix it".

In a month or so, I hope it will have the new S&W OEM spring and the Volquartsen extractor. Maybe then I can shoot it in a match, without needing a second 22 gun with me "just in case".

If my 41 had a mind of its own, it would see the Nelson 22 conversion kit I just mounted to a 1911, and maybe that would scare it so much it would stop being such a pain in the whatever. That's like the old computer trick of tying a brick above a stubborn computer, scaring it into working again.


(Seriously, thanks for all your help - I suspect some of the things I learned in this discussion are responsible for my gun working again.)

 

[mikemyers]

Interesting - the gun was mostly working a few days ago. I took it home and did basic cleaning, and put in the new recoil spring from S&W. Of 20 rounds fired, not even one of they "worked". They all seemed to be stuck in the barrel, and the ones that weren't were trapped when under the slide.

Today, I took out the new spring, and put back my old spring, with a kink. I also installed the Volquartsen extractor. No other changes, no cleaning, nothing.

Next Tuesday I'll test it again. If it's working, I'll use it at Sunday's match. If it's still screwed up, not sure what else to try - and for the match I'll use my S&W Model 17 revolver. If it misfires, from then on I'll load 6 rounds, not 5, and shoot the last one. Until then, I'll load only 5.

I'm feeling lost. I don't know why it had problems to begin with, then it started working, then when I changed springs, it broke. Now it will be back to the way it was when it was working, but with what I think is the better extractor.


Not sure if it matters, but it has been VERY hot here, close to 100. Maybe the stuff the bullets are coated with is melting, and allowing the rounds to get stuck????


I'm running out of hair. Maybe it's time to take it to my gunsmith........

 

[leinster lad]

I thought you would have issues with the new spring.

When you have the bolt out of the slide, make sure that the extractor spring and plunger are free to move in the hole. Very free, no scratchyness at all. 1000 grit wet'n'dry , wrapped around a tooth pick. twist twist , in and out ..... with a little oil on the paper.
Keep going until the spring slides in and out smoothly.
The same with the plunger, should drop in and fall out without assistance.
Also make sure that the slot that the extractor sits in is free of burrs and smooth.
A piece of 1000 wet,n,dry folded and folded until you get the right width and then polish that slot !

I think I also mentioned the benefit of cleaning (most, not all ) the wax off the ammo.
It is amazing how many issues it (the wax) can cause.

Good luck, you are nearly there !!!

 

[mikemyers]

That last bit I've never tried - how do you clean off most of the wax?

The plunger falls out if the slide is sideways. The extractor is free, and moves easily. I still need to clean out the hole - haven't done that yet.

I'm getting real suspicious about the wax..............

 

[leinster lad]

I just get an old dish drying cloth ( heavy cotton ) laid out on the bench.
Tip out the CCI SV box of 50 onto the cloth.
Fold the cloth over and just rub the rounds between the two pieces of cloth..
Doesn't take much time at all.

 

[Dave Lively]

I'm feeling lost. I don't know why it had problems to begin with, then it started working, then when I changed springs, it broke. Now it will be back to the way it was when it was working, but with what I think is the better extractor.

Slightly different symptoms but sounds very much like my M41. Some days it would come tantalizingly close to working the way the internet says it should with CCI standard velocity. The next trip to the range it would go back to its usual 3% to 5% failure rate for no apparent reason.

I am going to repeat my earlier suggestion. Quit trying to make the gun run well with CCI SV, buy a $9 recoil buffer and use MiniMags.

Since I did that shooting my M41 has gone from an exercise in frustration to the joy it should be. The CCI MM is a bit less accurate than SV but my M41 is still a very, very accurate gun with MM. Misses are my fault, not the gun's. And most importantly reliability has been excellent. I switched to MM about 3 range sessions ago and usually run about 150 to 300 rounds through the gun each trip. No failures of any kind so far. And the gun has not self destructed.

The same internet that is telling you CCI SV is the only ammunition for a M41 will also tell you that all 22s are a rule unto themselves when it comes to ammo preferences. Mine doesn't like CCI SV. It doesn't sound like yours does either.

If S&W and I am wrong about HV ammo damaging a M41 and the internet is right I might have to send the gun back to S&W for repair someday. But probably not. Compare the cost of sending the gun out to a gunsmith hoping they can make it work with CCI SV to the cost of having to send a broken M41 back for repair or replacing it with a more reliable pistol. After I did that the choice was obvious.

Good luck at your match today.

 

[leinster lad]

Just as a side note......

After cleaning a box (50) of CCI SV , i decided to weigh them !

51.3 grain down to 50.6 grain. Hmmm

So i cleaned another box and weighed them.
I got about the same spread of weight.
Another box, same result
another box, same.

So, I put all the 51.3 grain rounds into one box and labelled.
The 51.2's, into a box and labelled.

etc etc...

Now I have NO IDEA what the difference is.
Is it the weight of the bullet ?
Is it the weight of the power ? the brass ?

no idea, BUT now when I stand at the line to deliver 48 rounds at the paper, I know that what I am shooting is about as "even" as I can get (with CCI SV)

I have not had enough data points to see if there is anything in this, but.....

Have you ever been in a comp, or even just a normal detail, and had that odd shot or two that were just into the 9 ring ?, just a bit low ? and you thought to yourself *** ??? I know I didn't pull that shot....

Could it just be the slight differences between individual rounds ???

Is this why the "expensive" target ammo is so dear ? are they really manufactured to tighter tolerances ??

I am keeping an eye on this so time will tell.

 

[kidcom]

Mike I think it's time for you to completely strip apart your 41. You'd be surprised at the amount of crud that creeps into every nook and cranny. As a collector of 41s, 46s, 52s and 952s. I take every new addition to my collection completely apart right down to last screw. After a thorough cleaning and reassemble, I find the action is a smooth as silk. Well worth the cleaning effort. Complete instructions for the disassembly/assembly of the 41 are posted somewhere on the forum. I forget exactly where the instructions are.