S&W Model 41 Extractor Issues - one more thread

Also, if you have read my post on how "blow-back" operated semi's work, you would have noticed that there is a specific pewriod of time available for the case to "blow-back" and action the slide.

If for whatever reason, that period of time is too short, then the slide will not action 100%

This can cause the "hammer cocked, but next round not picked up" issue that some have mentioned.

It could also cause the "fail to extract" and "Fail to eject issues"

Thinking about it, what could cause that pressure pulse time window to be too short ?

One obvious answer would be that the bullet leaves the barrel too quickly.
Not via HV ammo = speed, but thru the barrel diameter being too large. i.e. not enough bullet to barrel friction.

Chrono'ing the rounds would show this.
CCI SV is rated at 1050fps in a xx" test barrel.
if you measure speeds higher than this, it would indicate the barrel is too big.....to a point. Because if the barrel gets too big, then the pressure is able to escape around the bullet which would then slow it down !
If this was the case, obviously there would be less chamber pressure to action the slide.

As you can see, it is a very fine balancing act.

Complex, YES !
 
oh, and bullet weight also comes into play

40 grain or 36 grain ?

The heavier the bullet, the more inertia it has.

So for the 40grn, the pressure pulse on ignition will be higher than the pressure pulse on a 36grn bullet.


So, as you can see, the operation of "blow-back" is a balance of time verses chamber/barrel pressure.

You cannot change time, but you sure as heck can change the barrel pressure/time curve.
 
leinster lad said:
I'll try inserting the link again :eek:

ALERT - (now with updates) WHEN CHANGING RECOIL SPRING ON MODEL 41..........
Click to expand...

I read the entire discussion. I think 'chief38' summed it up nicely in his response #26. Here's the part of what he wrote that changed my mind - if I get a Wolff spring, I will follow his directions, and not what now seems like incorrect instructions copied from a 1911:

"The Frame of the M41 has a 1/4" deep hole in it where the mushroomed end of the Guide Rod sits and is captured. The UNFINISHED end of a Wolff Spring can not go anywhere because the hole has a bottom and even if it slipped past the mushroomed end, still could not go anywhere!

The Slide (in the front) of the M41 has a hole in it that measures 5/16" at the rear allowing for the Recoil Spring to enter and clear. The front of that hole is smaller and measures 3/16" which captures the FINISHED end of the Recoil Spring but yet allows the Guide Rod to go through. There is a space around the Rod and that is where the problem occurs!

S&W ships M41's with Recoil Springs finished on BOTH ends - so of course what I am saying is a finished end HAS TO face the Muzzle!

S&W Springs are equal on both sides and it matters NOT which end goes where! "



To 'chief38', thank you for explaining this in a way that makes it obvious!
 
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As I have posted many times, the Volquartsen forged M41 Extractor solves many of the M41 problems of extracting failures. It costs about $10 bucks or so from Midway and takes all but 15 minutes to install. I can only state that the guns I have installed this part in now work perfectly - so hopefully it might help your problems as well.
 
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Good Morning. My mistake, the volquartsen extractor.

Exact Edge Extractor for S&W Model 41 | Volquartsen Firearms


Removing the hammer is not difficult, I have done it a couple times. Watch a couple of you tube videos to get started.


Reinstalling the hammer? that's a little more difficult. Best thing to do is find a miniature trained octopus.


Since I do not have a miniature trained octopus, I use a good vice to hold the frame at the correct angle so gravity works with you. Then I install the cocking indicator and hold it in place with a small pair of forceps. Then, with a couple dental picks to hold the springs in the correct spot, stick your tongue out at the corner of your mouth, crinkle up your forehead, and use your breath to coax the hammer in position to install the safety which holds the hammer. Good Luck! you will get it installed the day following that big match.


Regards,

Cranky
 
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chief38 said:
As I have posted many times, the Volquartsen forged M41 Extractor solves many of the M41 problems of extracting failures. It costs about $10 bucks or so from Midway and takes all but 15 minutes to install. I can only state that the guns I have installed this part in now work perfectly - so hopefully it might help your problems as well.
Click to expand...

I ordered the Volquartsen Extractor from MidwayUSA last week, and it is supposed to arrive on Wednesday, two days from now.



Wolff Springs:

I read your post, and studied your photos. The photos made your point very clear. Any doubts I had vanished.

As to Wolff, hindsight is always 20:20, but considering that in the world of autoloaders, the spring is supposed to go the other way, I'm disappointed that they didn't make the spring double-ended as S&W does. If I sold my gun tomorrow to someone, who took it apart to clean it, they would look at my spring and simply think that I did it wrong, as they're used to doing it the other way.

What made your point perfectly clear, was explaining about the hole in the gun, and showing how the spring could work its way through that hole, leading to expensive repairs. If enough people were to start writing Wolff, complaining about this, maybe they would make double-ended springs, and sell them at a slightly higher cost. If they wanted to be well thought of, they should simply exchange springs for anyone who has already bought the bad springs.

Last thing, why don't you create a thread titled WOLFF MODEL 41 RECOIL SPRINGS ARE DANGEROUS TO YOUR GUN !" Explain that the way springs are used on a 1911 is not applicable to the Model 41. Ask people to spread the word on other forums. Include your photos. If I wasn't so stubborn about searching for every thread on the S&W forum about stovepipes, I never would have found your post.

(Had I not read all this stuff here, I'd have ordered the spring, and followed the instructions on the packaging. At a minimum, Wolff needs to print new labels, saying that for a Model 41their new instructions MUST be followed. I think I will call Wolff later today, and discuss this with them.)
 
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mikemyers said:
I ordered the Volquartsen Extractor from MidwayUSA last week, and it is supposed to arrive on Wednesday, two days from now.



Wolff Springs:

I read your post, and studied your photos. The photos made your point very clear. Any doubts I had vanished.

As to Wolff, hindsight is always 20:20, but considering that in the world of autoloaders, the spring is supposed to go the other way, I'm disappointed that they didn't make the spring double-ended as S&W does. If I sold my gun tomorrow to someone, who took it apart to clean it, they would look at my spring and simply think that I did it wrong, as they're used to doing it the other way.

What made your point perfectly clear, was explaining about the hole in the gun, and showing how the spring could work its way through that hole, leading to expensive repairs. If enough people were to start writing Wolff, complaining about this, maybe they would make double-ended springs, and sell them at a slightly higher cost. If they wanted to be well thought of, they should simply exchange springs for anyone who has already bought the bad springs.

Last thing, why don't you create a thread titled WOLFF MODEL 41 RECOIL SPRINGS ARE DANGEROUS TO YOUR GUN !" Explain that the way springs are used on a 1911 is not applicable to the Model 41. Ask people to spread the word on other forums. Include your photos. If I wasn't so stubborn about searching for every thread on the S&W forum about stovepipes, I never would have found your post.

(Had I not read all this stuff here, I'd have ordered the spring, and followed the instructions on the packaging. At a minimum, Wolff needs to print new labels, saying that for a Model 41their new instructions MUST be followed. I think I will call Wolff later today, and discuss this with them.)
Click to expand...

When TWO of my friends that owned M41's had theirs jam up stiff as a corps, I spoke to Mr. Wolff and his Secretary a few times - but they did not want to deal with this issue of redesigning the spring - plain and simple! I suggested a bunch of times that they manufacture springs finished on BOTH sides, but they do not want to throw all the old stock out and make new ones apparently - just that simple. AT LEAST paint the side RED that faces forward!!

Wolff did pay to reimburse one of my friends that had to send his M41 into S&W for repair and a complete refinish - it was a-shame too, because his was from the early 1970's and in pristine condition, now it's just another refinished M41. I also sent back my stock of M41 Recoil Springs for a refund since they don't make any I would use for that model.

I tried as hard as I could with Wolff (falling of deaf ears unfortunately), warned everyone here on the Forum, and have now run out of patients. It is sometimes difficult to convince the "experts" that a guy like me (just an aficionado and "Jr- G Smith who is self taught) that they made an honest mistake. The one thing I do pride myself on is COMMON SENSE, even when the Manufacturers and so called Professionals tell me different - they make boo boos too!

Hopefully, all the M41 owners here have read and believe it .......

Regards,
Chief38
 
Remember the saying "one picture is worth a thousand words"? What needs to spread to the other forums is your photos, along with a short paragraph for explanation.

I will post something on the Bullseye Forum later today, unless someone beats me to it.

----------------------------------

Back to stovepipes, I thought my M-41 was all set properly, cleaned, everything installed properly with stock (old) spring, new ejector spring and plunger. With no expectation of it working, I took it to the range today anyway. The new Volquartsen extractor arrives in two days, so today was just a test.

I started loading one round at a time:
Round 1 got stuck in the barrel
Round 2 got stovepipes near the top
Round 3 fired normally, but the slide did not lock back
Round 4 round stuck in barrel, slide did not lock back
Round 5 and 6 - fired normally, but the slide did not lock back

After this I loaded five rounds, all of which shot normally. I think loaded five more, and again they shot normally.

At this point I moved on to testing a lighter load of powder on my 1911 before the rains came. 1911 was fine, I got drenched.

I have no plans to do anything else until the Volquartsen extractor arrives, other than order a new stock recoil spring. Everything is very, very lightly oiled where appropriate, and the gun seems fine. Frustrating. I guess I need to find a lighter spring as well, hopefully not from Wolff.
 
Not trying to throw a hand grenade into the room but my Model 41 (1976) will not function properly with standard velocity ammunition, including CCI, using a standard factory spring. The factory spring in the gun has been cut, I guess by the previous owner, and is approx. 20% shorter than the stock OEM spring.
 
In what way does your gun not function?

Does the problem happen both with the factory spring, and with whatever the cut spring is?

No problem with yet another hand grenade, there are already too many. One more won't hurt.


People have discussed spraying out the gun with gun scrubber. Any reason not to remove the grips, and then to thoroughly flush out the main parts of the gun? I'm thinking of all the internals, that I don't feel (yet) like disassembling. The bad side, is it might flush dirt into places where I don't want it to be, but on the positive side, if I flush it long enough, hopefully any and all grit and grime will be flushed away.
 
With a regular length OEM spring, and standard vel ammunition of various manufacturers, I get malfunctions similar to the ones you are experiencing.....empty casing left in the chamber, (gun/slide does not open or re-cock after firing) "stovepipes", or casings trapped in the ejection space above the magazine, and when the gun actually fires and the slide ejects the spent casing and recocks, the slide does not lock back.

Once I went back to my OEM spring that had been cut, AND I TURNED IT THE CORRECT WAY (cut coil to the rear), issues disappeared.
This is with the shorter OEM barrel. Longer barrel (originally supplied with the gun when factory new) works with every sort of ammo. I'm wondering if the longer barrel works better because the projectile is in the barrel longer?? (pressure)

I've never liked or used Gun Scrubber or other pressurized cleaners. To me, they are a waste of money, dangerous for the user (harsh chemicals), and strip the internals of required lubricants. I believe the only areas needing additional time and attention are the extractor, bolt face and breechface, and the firing pin cavity and spring. Pretty easy cleaning these areas by hand, and they require only minimal disassembly. The other areas can be cleaned with an old toothbrush and a solvent or light oil of choice.
 
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armorer951 said:
.........Once I went back to my OEM spring that had been cut, AND I TURNED IT THE CORRECT WAY (cut coil to the rear), issues disappeared. This is with the shorter OEM barrel. ......
Click to expand...

Unless you did it, how do you know the "OEM spring that had been cut" isn't something different than OEM? When you get a chance, can you count how many coils are left?

I ordered a new OEM spring, will be here by next week. That means I can take my OEM spring that is being replaced, and cut it to the same length as yours. I know what power the OEM spring is supposed to have, but unless you measure the wire diameter, the number of coils, and the length, I'm not sure I can replicate what you have.

Good thing I'm not in a hurry. My list of things to try now includes:
a) shoot it just the way it is now, and see if it continues to work,
b) shoot it after installing the Volquartsen extractor later this week,
c) shoot it with the new OEM spring, and
d) shoot it with the old OEM spring, shortened like yours.

(I have two barrels to test with, the original 7" barrel, and a new barrel from Clark which also has a rail on top.)
 
My current recoil spring is 4 inches in length. (30-31 coils)

Wire diameter .029".

Instead of cutting it to this exact length, I would try the new spring first, then if you have problems, cut and test a bit at a time until you reach the point where your ammo of choice will function correctly. Keep in mind there will be some break in (shortening) of the spring under stresses of firing
 
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(I don't plan to cut the new spring, only the OEM spring that I already have. I want to hang onto the new spring, just as it comes from S&W, but possibly shortened a bit due to use.)
 
"This is with the shorter OEM barrel. Longer barrel (originally supplied with the gun when factory new) works with every sort of ammo. I'm wondering if the longer barrel works better because the projectile is in the barrel longer?? (pressure)"

YES !!!
 
mikemyers said:
People have discussed spraying out the gun with gun scrubber. Any reason not to remove the grips, and then to thoroughly flush out the main parts of the gun? I'm thinking of all the internals, that I don't feel (yet) like disassembling. The bad side, is it might flush dirt into places where I don't want it to be, but on the positive side, if I flush it long enough, hopefully any and all grit and grime will be flushed away.
Click to expand...


You will not have any issues.
The frame is open enough to allow all gunk to wash out.
I use a can of "degreaser" from the auto-parts shop. It is cheap, clean n a little bit oily and has plenty of pressure.

Carby cleaner (or throttle body cleaner, same thing) is great for carbon removal, but it is very strong and hurts like heck if you get it in your eye:eek:

I have not noticed any affect on blueing, but YMMV. use at own risk ! (I use it in my chamber and barrel, trying to avoid any contact with the exterior)

Brake cleaner (again from the auto shop) is a lot more gentle and dries quick with no residue.
This (and the carb clean) will remove ALL OIL (and gunk) so pins / pivots etc will def need to be re-oiled.

It is great for cleaning out the firing pin channel and extractor channel etc without disassembly.
I then put the tiniest drop of oil on these parts after cleaning and drying off.

There are really only a few critical lube points .

Slide rails (obviously)
Hammer pivot pin and sides of hammer
Hammer spring (so it can slide nicely on the hammer rod thing)
sear pivot pin and sides of sear
hammer / sear interface
trigger pivot pin
trigger bar (where it slides in the frame)
Trigger bar tab at sear and tab at trigger
Slide lock bar ( where it slides in the frame. Make sure it is located UNDER the tab on the safety)
Mag disconnect and spring
Mag release
recoil spring and guide rod ( just an oily film)
 
Recoil springs.

1. have to be light enough to allow for full function of the slide.
2. have to be strong enough to control recoil.
3. have to be strong enough to prevent damage to the frame / slide

therefore, the best spring will be the strongest spring that still allow full function of the firearm. ( ie reliability )

how to tell.

Look at where your fired cases are landing !

You want them to land as close to you as possible whilst still allowing the firearm to function correctly.

Old springs will naturally be lighter than new springs.

So replacing an old spring with a new one will NOT rectify a fail to extract etc issue as the slide MUST be able to fully stroke.

I always use one of those little plastic "recoil buffers" in mine, just in case.
 
leinster lad said:
..........There are really only a few critical lube points .

Slide rails (obviously)
Hammer pivot pin and sides of hammer
Hammer spring (so it can slide nicely on the hammer rod thing)
sear pivot pin and sides of sear
hammer / sear interface
trigger pivot pin
trigger bar (where it slides in the frame)
Trigger bar tab at sear and tab at trigger
Slide lock bar ( where it slides in the frame. Make sure it is located UNDER the tab on the safety)
Mag disconnect and spring
Mag release
recoil spring and guide rod ( just an oily film)
Click to expand...

Uh oh, I don't know where many of those parts are, let alone where to add a bit of lubricant.

Are they all exposed to the outside, or does a person need to disassemble everything to get access to them? Any videos that show this? Any photos that identify each of the parts? If not, I'll work from the parts diagram at Numrich.

I obviously don't know very much about this gun, other than what's need to know for basic maintenance.

It it's really complicated, that may be enough additional reasons to take it to a gunsmith.
 
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