why no forward assist? I've not run into that discussion."I have the first generation of the M&P 15 Sport... nothing fancy and not milspec, but a fine rifle."
Was that the one without the forward assist? Man, I wish I would have bought one. By the time I found out about them (yeah, I'm a little slow) they had moved on to the Sport II with the forward assist. I sort of looked for one for a few years, but all I saw had been modified in one way or another, and that's not for me.
Now I've quit buying guns (if I tell myself that often enough maybe it will come true).
S&W, Ruger, Colt, which AR-15?
- Thread starter louisq
- Start date
cyphertext
US Veteran
The first generation Sport was marketed as a budget gun. In order to save costs, the rifle did not come with the ejection port cover or the forward assist. Few parts, less machining... less production costs. They also did not include heat shields in the handguards as another cost savings. Since they came with M4 style handguards that most replace anyway, this made sense.
Lots of discussions on if the forward assist is truly needed or not... another rabbit hole if you will. Some say it is a must on a "fighting" rifle. Others argue that if the round does not chamber, then clear it... no need to force it in the chamber.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Since your BCM is every bit as good as your Colts, are we to assume that you are a rich man?
touchoneoff
Member
I have had a few different makes of AR's, and I have to say that unless your going to treat it like we treated our M-16's in the Green Machine, just about any one of your possible selections will work well.
I had the Ruger, the S&W, a Bushmaster, and a PSA....all of them ran well, but the Ruger I had would not run any steel cased ammo very well. Right now I have been running a Del Ton rifle, and have been quite pleased with it.
Bottom line and you can skip the blather.
I can spend 2k. Over 3-4 months ideal.
$600 out of pocket a month for a build would be perfect. I'm seeing deals and wouldn't mind some level of build for the invaluable knowledge. I want a rifle my nephews (Afganistan Iraq veterans all) could inherit and bet their lives on the build.
I'd invest in the tools for a total build. Tool cost as an add on cost.
I'm sure the nephews would like that value added.
What to do, thick skinned and listening....
(I went off and overspent on a Glock and am having Sig drools. Just couldn't go the SW striker, maybe more money than sense)
That seems to be the developing direction. After all the incredible input, regardless of my age, I lean towards a definite upgrade from Ruger and S&W. Those are manufacturers I've had a dozen or so pistols and rifles from. I'd always been happy.
So.... I'd not like a "truck" gun. I've had several Ruger 9mm tool box specials. They were fun and reasonably reliable. My Mini14 was the most reliable rifle I've ever owned. I put thousands of rounds through it. I still am drawn to it, but because it looks nothing like an assault rifle, yet was very capable.
This time I want a sustainable working rifle. Something that can use other parts. Is known to be reliable. I get that my original 3 are reliable by many accounts, but I don't need to pinch pennies, but I don't want to spend $2500.
Something in the range of $1000-$1200 that could be improved on, but a good to excellent lower and trigger group. In my experience my trigger and barrel and non AR rifles performed, were most accurate, best for me.
I'm somewhat embarrassed by my n00b questions and developing opinions....
I must say I'm totally impressed by the aplomb and great exchange of ideas here. This has become my go to forum. Thanks ever so much for patiently educating me.
So...
Would it be a good move to build? Every firearm I've owned was well enough studied to strip and reassemble nearly blindfolded. I've always believed that along with ownership, the ability to maintain was critical. Nothing worse than a tool that can't be properly used or maintained.
What would constitute a good base to build on. From what I've gleaned so far, the Ruger, low end S&W, and Colt may not fit that mold. That said, there seem to be upgrade versions of at least two, with some fit issues with Colt.
Looking around more, I could squeeze out up to 2k but I dip into $$ stash instead of outright purchase over $1000. No Yugo, but no need for a Maserati either. In my parlance it'd be a mis level Toyota. (Never had one need repairs under 150,000 miles)
Again, thanks to all and the mods for a great forum. Even an aging liberal Republican, conservative Democrat cross can find a home here.
"Our shared values define us more than our differences. And acknowledging those shared values can see us through our challenges today if we have the wisdom to trust in them again."
John McCain
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You've invested a lot of time, thanks. Could you expand?
cyphertext
US Veteran
It is a Colt LE6920 with a free float rail out of the box, and I have seen it priced less than the standard LE6920. Choose your sights and/or optic and you are good to go. You can change out the grips and the stock if you would like, or upgrade the trigger.
If you want to free float the barrel and want a different handguard than what comes on that rifle, you could also look into the Colt OEM2... it comes without handguard, trigger guard, stock, and sights so you can buy what you want. The only reason it comes with the pistol grip is because the grip holds a spring and detent in.
I really like my Sport, but when I built a rifle for my son when he earned his Eagle Scout, I built the lower from a stripped lower and put in an upgraded trigger, as well as a Magpul grip and stock. I purchased a complete upper from BCM that has the midlength gas system and free floated barrel with a keymod hand guard. Spent as much on his upper as I spent on my complete rifle... and when I bought my Sport, they were running $700.
His rifle is the "better" rifle between the two, but the hogs and targets don't know the difference. Don't see any real difference in accuracy between the two, and neither rifle has failed us.
I can see the draw to Ruger and S&W. A 9mm and AR pair for under $1000. WOW!
This season eBike kit and battery sales commissions better be good.
Committed. BCM Gunfighter. Build. I can buy piecemeal out of pocket. Looking for toll and vise block reviews.
Next it's optics... and a drive to the big city to view. MSE, interesting on paper.
This season eBike kit and battery sales commissions better be good.
Committed. BCM Gunfighter. Build. I can buy piecemeal out of pocket. Looking for toll and vise block reviews.
Next it's optics... and a drive to the big city to view. MSE, interesting on paper.
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Since your BCM is every bit as good as your Colts, are we to assume that you are a rich man?
I wasn't doing too bad when I bought my BCM (upper & lower separately) but now that I'm retired I'm far from rich. I still think if you want a carbine of a non-standard configuration BCM is the way to go (it wasn't any cheaper though).
S&W, Ruger, Colt, which AR-15?
I have been a colt AR guy always but recently added an early heavy barrel Bushmaster and I must say it holds its own to my Colts.....but I wouldn't own more than one of them. I recently discovered Troy and I must say I am very impressed with their product and just might add a few more of them to the pile. There is a lot that can be had relatively inexpensively, but for me, an old man, it has been the lure of the prancing pony.....but I try to stay open minded and will continue to add other brands to the pile.
The pile of colts with a bushmaster lurking in their and a colt M4 lower with an Alexander Arms Beowulf upper.
The newly added Troy
I have been a colt AR guy always but recently added an early heavy barrel Bushmaster and I must say it holds its own to my Colts.....but I wouldn't own more than one of them. I recently discovered Troy and I must say I am very impressed with their product and just might add a few more of them to the pile. There is a lot that can be had relatively inexpensively, but for me, an old man, it has been the lure of the prancing pony.....but I try to stay open minded and will continue to add other brands to the pile.
The pile of colts with a bushmaster lurking in their and a colt M4 lower with an Alexander Arms Beowulf upper.
The newly added Troy
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noro
Member
Louis,
I'd still suggest going to a base model first, and see how it works for your needs. The possibilities are endless in the AR platform.
Optics, furniture, barrels, twist rates are all options. Just cause
you buy a base model doesn't mean you're locked into it. Get one first and see what appeals to you regarding options.
I'd still suggest going to a base model first, and see how it works for your needs. The possibilities are endless in the AR platform.
Optics, furniture, barrels, twist rates are all options. Just cause
you buy a base model doesn't mean you're locked into it. Get one first and see what appeals to you regarding options.
wnderr
Member
For my Zombie gun, I chose the Ruger AR-556, as the most bang for the buck, and ready to shoot right out of the box. Hasn't failed yet, and I like it! Mine is staying stock, because everything works correctly!
cyphertext
US Veteran
If you aren't planning to build multiple rifles, I would not recommend this route. Money spent on tools could be better spent on optics, ammo, and range time.
Did you look at the Colt OEM2 that I suggessted? It allows you to dress it up however you want, and wouldn't require a the cash outlay for tools. You can put BCM gunfighter grip and stock on it, choose whatever rail system, etc.
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About the build it yourself idea........ various companies build things at various levels of features/quality. Some companies have selections that cover the range. That said:
First, NO builder of AR platforms makes all the parts. There are only a limited number of makers of some of those parts. Companies doing quality work do receipt inspections of parts. Yeah, they buy "quality" parts, but they make sure the vendor supplies what's on the invoice. You don't have that capability.
What do you think happens to the parts that don't comply with all particulars of the blueprint specification? Ideally, they get scrapped. However, that doesn't mean they actually get scrapped or that the scrap recipient doesn't sell them out the back door. Now if the issue is something minor that doesn't affect the integrity of the part, probably not an issue. On the other hand..................
I could go on in depth-especially about part quality & mil-spec vs commercial, but frankly it's impossible to do a quality build for what you can buy from a quality vendor and this is before you buy the tools and gauges-and some of those gauges aren't available outside factories.
I'll give you an example, at one time a lot of ARs was purchased from a name (not mentioned in my previous post) builder. There were several that ate gas rings. You assemble the rifle with 3 gas rings, go shoot the exercises and during cleaning discover that one or two rings were missing. Obviously an issue with dimensions in the BCG, but the maker inspected and claimed within spec. (Cured by one piece gas rings) But, it gets better. At the end of a CQB training cycle our armorers had to replace barrels (not chrome plated), bolts and all the parts in the fire control group. Yeah, they had lotta rounds through them, but the Colts & M&P15s took a licking and kept on ticking. IIRC, the Colts cracked a few bolts/bolt lugs, but not bad considering the usage.
One piece of positive advice: Buy barrels with chrome barrel bore & chamber. This retards gas erosion of the rifling. The price difference is much less than a new barrel and any difference in accuracy won't be seen by us mere mortals.
Second piece of advice: you don't have to spent $2K to get a quality AR platform. OTOH, if you want to, look at Lewis Machine & Tool products.
First, NO builder of AR platforms makes all the parts. There are only a limited number of makers of some of those parts. Companies doing quality work do receipt inspections of parts. Yeah, they buy "quality" parts, but they make sure the vendor supplies what's on the invoice. You don't have that capability.
What do you think happens to the parts that don't comply with all particulars of the blueprint specification? Ideally, they get scrapped. However, that doesn't mean they actually get scrapped or that the scrap recipient doesn't sell them out the back door. Now if the issue is something minor that doesn't affect the integrity of the part, probably not an issue. On the other hand..................
I could go on in depth-especially about part quality & mil-spec vs commercial, but frankly it's impossible to do a quality build for what you can buy from a quality vendor and this is before you buy the tools and gauges-and some of those gauges aren't available outside factories.
I'll give you an example, at one time a lot of ARs was purchased from a name (not mentioned in my previous post) builder. There were several that ate gas rings. You assemble the rifle with 3 gas rings, go shoot the exercises and during cleaning discover that one or two rings were missing. Obviously an issue with dimensions in the BCG, but the maker inspected and claimed within spec. (Cured by one piece gas rings) But, it gets better. At the end of a CQB training cycle our armorers had to replace barrels (not chrome plated), bolts and all the parts in the fire control group. Yeah, they had lotta rounds through them, but the Colts & M&P15s took a licking and kept on ticking. IIRC, the Colts cracked a few bolts/bolt lugs, but not bad considering the usage.
One piece of positive advice: Buy barrels with chrome barrel bore & chamber. This retards gas erosion of the rifling. The price difference is much less than a new barrel and any difference in accuracy won't be seen by us mere mortals.
Second piece of advice: you don't have to spent $2K to get a quality AR platform. OTOH, if you want to, look at Lewis Machine & Tool products.
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I did not until tonight. I'll take a closer look. I got the wild hair about a build simply because my best automobile, and now 3D printing and eBike builds have meant I learned the skills to be pretty darn self sufficient. Any problem I face involved the installation and learning curve to manage the part/build. Would it not be better for the nOOb to start off with a clearer understanding of thevbuild and issues. I don have a clue, but believe me I am carefully focused and listening.
One other thought and question. Would I never need the tools in the coarse of ownership? Wouldn't the inclusion make the package more sustainable and increase the value to my devisee? I'm not trying to save uncles money. I now, as this gets thought out and sorted would like to end up with a base combat ready AR15. As much as I want the kid to have a great rifle, I want to have a complete, as as complete an understanding as a gut my age can have. If all goes as expected I'll pop off 1000 or more rounds and then put another few away forposterity. Every few months I d like to cycle a couple hundred rounds. Replacing a fair percentage of my pistol rounds. I wil keep compentensy but replace the oh what the heck rounds.
So. I'm leaning part BCM build, Noveske Lower? Or not of value? From past experience I found a trigger and barrel upgrade useful. With the wheelguns I've owned, trigger work was essential. Even if only a slight cleanup.
I apologize in advance. I'm sorting, processing, and struggling with learning all at once.
I'm thankfully convinced there's enough thoughtful adults here, willing to chase the rabbit and grow this discussion.
If there's a way to give back, I'm all in.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
My opinion, there are too many rabbit holes for the newb to get lost in. Until you have a rifle and put some rounds down range, you don't know what you don't know... for example, do you want a carbine length gas system, or mid-length? Do you want a free floated barrel? Do you need a different trigger? Some answers will be dependent upon what you want to do with the rifle. Plus, like WR Moore said, it is sometimes difficult to know if you are buying true quality or just some marketing hype.
I say your best bet is to buy a complete rifle from a reputable manufacturer in as close to the configuration that you think will meet your needs and go from there. Because I started with the Sport, I knew that when I built my son's rifle I wanted a free floated barrel with a slimmer handguard. I wanted folding sights as we planned to use an optic, instead of the standard A2 style sights. I knew that I wanted to stay with a standard, mil-spec type trigger but for it to be polished with less grit than the one in my Sport. I wanted a different grip than the standard A2 style grip... I knew all of these things because of the time we spent at the range with my Sport.
Building is great when you know exactly what you want and nobody sells that configuration. But I don't think it imparts you with any greater knowledge that is going to make you a better shooter. Watch a few youtube videos on how to build an AR and you will see how the parts go together and how they work... you don't have to actually build it to get the knowledge and understanding.
cyphertext
US Veteran
This web page says in stock...
Colt LE6920-OEM2
I just saw on another forum that Colt discontinued these... so they may be hard to find.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
Some of the tools, such as an armorers wrench could come in handy, but I haven't needed them in day to day ownership and use.
Noveske stripped lower? I wouldn't pay the premium for it. There are a handful of forges that make all of the forged lowers. The difference in quality comes with who does the final machining. While Noveske is a premium brand, there are many other manufacturers who machine a lower to spec as well and the cost is less. I know you said you aren't trying to save money, but why throw money away when you could use that on optics or other parts.
If you want a BCM build, why not just buy a BCM upper and a BCM lower with what you want already on it? By buying the upper and lower separately and not as a complete rifle, there is some tax savings, but you should always check to see both ways to see which is the better deal.
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