Schofield 2000 Top-Break Problem with Cylinder Hitting Cylinder Catch

[Hearsedriver]

You still have not mentioned what you have been shooting in the gun?
As mentioned, HSM Cowboy loads. I use factory cowboy action ammo, usually 200-230 grain traveling at between 700-800 fps. No reloads.

The latch on the Schofield was designed to take what 45 caliber ammo could offer in the day. The latch would have to travel over 1/8" before the gun could open and then there is no way it would be able to re-latch on its own.

I too have been thinking that there is a chance of a bent frame, but solid lock-up would indicate that has not happened?? My theory is that the base pin is too short, since nothing else can prevent the cylinder from traveling rearward. Perhaps a gunsmith could add length by building up a weld on the stud and shaping it until the cylinder locks solidly without enough play in the cylinder to allow it to contact the cylinder catch tabs. Shims will do nothing to prevent the damage you are seeing since they will not stop rearward movement of the cylinder.
Agreed. I wish I knew how to remove the base pin from the frame. I dont know if it is threaded or pressed in.

Lastly, .007" sounds way to small?? With the action open, pull the cylinder back as far as possible and measure the gap.
.028"
Now close the gun and pull the cylinder back and measure.
.015"
You can figure out what you have with feeler gauges in front of the cylinder. Using my reproduction Schofield as an example, i measured the gap between the barrel and face of the cylinder when the rear of the cylinder was touching the catch tabs and it was .015" Closing the gun and pushing the cylinder as far rearward as possible, I got .009". That tells me that the recoil shield is holding the cylinder .006" away from the tabs and therefore no damage to the cylinder. Check your out with careful measurements. Snug fit with the gauges, but not forced is the key.

So mines comes out to .013" vs. your .006". Wow! Kinda sounds like I have a stretched frame.

To be clear, you are calling the part I have circled the base pin, correct?

What am I missing? Here is a picture of the gap which seems more then enough between the cylinder and tab.

 

[2152hq]

The base pin (part circled) doesn't limit or control the rearward movement of the cylinder.
The cylinder only spins on it as an axel.

What limits how far to the rear the cylinder will slide back when the gun is closed is the center flat portion of the ratchet/extractor bearing on the frame,,the centerpin being engaged in the frame.
The cylinder can't go back any farther than that center portion of the ratchet/extractor bearing against the frame allows.

When the gun is open,,that interface is lost.
Now the cylinder is free to back up on the base pin and would come right off the pin,,but,,to keep it on and in position,,those 2 little tabs were designed to hold the cylinder from doing just that.
The tabs take no recoil or shouldn't,,,(clearence) when the gun is closed and fired,
Nor should they take any stress as the cylinder is opened and the ratchet/extractor is pushed to it's extreme height just before it trips off the bbl cam and snaps back into position.

Measuring with a feeler gauge at the front of the cylinder with the gun open only tells you just that, that the cylinder slides back that far to meet the tabs.
It doesn't really matter how far it slides back when it's open, that should not be a slam, bang, dent the back of the cylinder event.
It gets gently pushed back (against the limit of the tabs so the cylinder stays in the gun and on the base pin) as the empty brass is raised up to be ejected when the ejector snaps back in position.

If you measure the clearence up front with the gun closed and the cylinder pushed to the rear,,that's the bbl/cyl gap. Good to know.
But what you really want to know is wether the rear center flat area of the ratchet is engaged and turning on the frame at the center pin point.
It should be and if it is,,then that's as far as that cylinder can go backwards.
If the edge of the cylinder does not touch those tabs at this point, it can't touch those tabs.
Recoil can't make the cylinder go any further backwards against the frame unless something in or on the frame is allowing it to move backwards during firing.


The base pin doesn't limit it's movement backwards,,it allows unlimited movement backwards.
The cylinder will come right off of the base pin no matter how long you make it if the ratchet center or the latch tabs weren't there.
The ratchet center against the frame arrests the cylinders movement when gun is closed,,the tabs when the gun is open.


**In looking at the one pic of the rear of the cylinder with the ratchet/extractor in place,,I notice the small wear circle in the blue finish around the center pin.

That wear circle I'd expect to see from some use, but I'd also expect to see it as a much wider circle of worn finish. Not the very narrow edge that shows.
What really catches my eye is the Star like imprint around that narrow wear circle.
That 'Star' looks just like the cylinder chamber indexing.
Is that flat bearing area of the ratchet that runs against the frame and holds the cylinder out and away from those tabs (holds the headspace actually) be imprinting itself ever so slightly somehow into the face of the frame around the center pin hole?

If it's in a pattern that mimics the chamber index, and was enough movement upon recoil to set the cylinder back a tiny amt, that may be enough to do the damage.
Kind of like how cartridges get imprinted into the face of the recoil shield on revolvers when fired.
What does the face of the frame look like at the center pin point?,,Any imprint from the matching wear pattern 'star' on the ratchet center or displaced metal,,or anything that may allow the cylinder to set back in recoil and hit those tabs.

Just another theory of course..

 

[Hearsedriver]

2142hq, thank you for the outstanding reply! I didnt think the base pin had anything to do with the forward/backward travel limit of the cylinder either. Good eye on the star pattern! I had not noticed that. Yes, the same pattern can be seen around the center hole. The star does match the indexing too. Any ideas on how to correct it? Im thinking the cylinder is just traveling back around .002-.003" by judging the marks on the cylinder. Im really surprised that the cylinder can travel back .015-.016" of an inch during recoil!

 

[glowe]

I call that a quill, and it is not the base pin or stud which is the very center of the star for me. Part 885a on your schematic in post 12 as previously discussed. Others have called it a base pin and I recall that my Navy Arms schematic calls it the same. Your schematic calls it a extractor stud and 2152HQ calls it something else, but we are talking about the thing that limits the rearward travel of the cylinder. The point of measuring the gap when the cylinder is open is he furthest back the cylinder can travel. It the gap when the gun is closed is less than when it is open, the cylinder should not be able to contact the tabs, BUT it is somehow doing that very thing??

For some reason, it looks like the area around the center hole is chewed up? I wonder if the pin or stud is not seating all the way in and might be resting on the edge of the hole until shot? This is a true mystery still.

 

[Hearsedriver]

I wonder if I could just take about .005" off of the back of those cylinder catch tabs and call it good? Maybe rounding the edges a little to cut down on the damage to the cylinder? I posted this question to other owners of these guns at the SASS forum and they responded that they are seeing the same thing on thier Schofield 2000's with higher round counts.

 

[Hearsedriver]

And of course, S&W sent me the wrong part. A cylinder stop instead of the cylinder catch that I need. Nothing is easy........

 

[WR Moore]

Rather than bashing yourself, why not dump the problem on S&W and let them fix it?

 

[mrdix]

I had a Smith & Wesson schofield that did the same thing ! 2 trips back to smith and I sold the gun for an Uberti, I agree this issue happens when the gun in fired not when you eject the cartridges , the marks on the cylinder are perfectly lined up when the cylinder in inline with the barrel .