Self Defense Ammo

[smokey0118]

I don't necessarily use law enforcement ammo choices to base civilian self-defense ammo selection on. The main reason is the LE standards for barrier penetration. For me, adequate soft tissue expansion and penetration should be the primary selection criteria for civilian self-defense ammo.

critical defense may be a choice for you then. Hornady designed it to have very little recoil and stop at around the 11" mark in ballistics gel.

Underwood 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP Ammo Test - YouTube
this underwood loading may appeal to you as well. I personally want penetration beyond 12" to reach the things that bleed a lot at the back of the thoracic cavity, but .88" expansion and 9" of penetration may be what you're looking for.

I like these a little better and still have a couple hundred left over from an order a while back...
9mm +P+ Underwood 147 gr Gold Dot Ammo Gel Test - YouTube
I'm diggin them. I tossed some through some water jugs a while back and the bullet showed similar expansion to tnoudoors9's tests. Over 12" penetration and .8" expansion is pretty derned decent in a 9mm. They do have some pretty stout recoil though. It's not nearly as pleasant to shoot as the standard 147 gr pdx1's.

 

[smokey0118]

1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One of the reasons penetration is important to me. Your shot may meet arms, legs, jackets, or other barriers on the way to the heart and lungs. On a 3-dimentional target, 12" of penetration is a good minimum to expect. I personally feel more comfortable with 15 or so. In the shootout above, the criminal was shot through his right arm and into his chest cavity. If that weak and outdated 115 gr 9mm was a 147 gr gold dot, or hornady critical duty 135+p, it would have likely penetrated that extra inch into Platt's heart and saved the lives of a couple LEO's. More time is given to threats by underpenetrating rounds failing to make it to the vitals than what an extra .1" expansion would accomplish.

 

[radar1972]

spyder, as you can see, there are a myriad of possibilities.

Smokey has given you (and us) a gob of VERY useful information in one place. Excellent data.

The choice is yours. For me personally, I've always carried Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense.

 

[smokey0118]

spyder, as you can see, there are a myriad of possibilities.

Smokey has given you (and us) a gob of VERY useful information in one place. Excellent data.

The choice is yours. For me personally, I've always carried Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense.

Thanks radar. I did notice critical defense had much softer recoil than the 135+p critical duty. It's a solid choice for people concerned with recoil.

 

[smokey0118]

found some hst 147 +p...
Federal Premium Tactical HST 9mm 147 Grain +P JHP

 

[3dots]

I'm always worried about over penetration. A stinkin .22LR hard ball can pass right through you. For me it's something proven to expand like Hornady Critical Defense/Duty and Federal Hydra-Shok. Spec'd gel tests and even real meat prove it over and over, these rounds work every time. The shaft in Hydra-Shok's point is like the rubber in the FTX and sheds off fiber so it won't clog. The Hydra-Shok is beefier though and would be better for barrier penetration. Just IMHO...

Happy Shooting-

 

[Harrison]

In 9mm, Speer GD, +P 115 or 124 gr.

 

[SHAMUSPI]

Short barrel gun: Hornady Critical Defense

Full size gun: Hornady Critical Duty

Also Rans:

Winchester PDX1

Speer Gold Dot

Federal HydraShok

Given the short barrel of your 3913, I would avoid +P rnds.

By the way, "most" LE agencies buy ammo according to (1) cost, (2) availability, (3) liabilities

 

[Bartman3562]

Federal HST

After research, and some shooting, I run Federal HST in every gun I carry except my Judge, and it has a combo of PDX in it.

 

[Outrider]

Good thread!

Good thread!

What do you have on available 10mm and .45 loads?

 

[smokey0118]

Good thread!

What do you have on available 10mm and .45 loads?

.45 is an interesting cartridge to use for hollow-points. Loads often don't have much more energy than a .40 or 9mm, but they do often have considerably more momentum...like...50% more. The increase in momentum as you go from light/fast of 9, to meh/meh of .40 to heavy/slow of .45 means that as you go up in caliber, you'll experience less deflection. Let me show you an example of what I mean in real numbers...

Federal HST 124+p 9mm out of a glock 19:
Velocity: 1178
Energy: 382
Momentum: 20

Federal HST 230+p 45acp out of a colt 1911:
Velocity: 957(smokin fast with this heavy of a .45)
Energy: 467
momentum: 31

and in real world deflection...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm

Notice that even though the .45 only has a ~20% increase in energy, there's over 50% increase in momentum. It should also be noted that the larger surface area of the base of a .45 compared to a 9mm makes any increase in PSI behind it much more efficient in transferring energy to the bullet. It's the reason why shotguns are so efficient...more base for that pressure to push on.

Now thinking in terms of energy available to do work...work being the tissue moved or crushed by the bullet...since the .45 has pretty similar energy when compared to a 9 or 40, it'll do roughly similar work. Given that the .45 will expand larger than a 9mm most of the time, it means that it will do that work in a shorter distance...orrr...that it won't penetrate as deep.

It's very difficult to make a .45 that will expand to 1.5 times it's diameter and penetrate 12-16" in gel because of what I stated above. Pretty much the only way to do it is with a +p loading or in something heavy for caliber. With the exception of the dpx line, 185 gr .45's will just not reliably penetrate. The best loads are often the 230 gr loads such as the 230 gr.45hst+p above.

here's an example of what I'm saying with 185 gr and penetration...
.45 ACP ZOMBIE MAX Review and Ammo Test - YouTube

With all that out there, here are some good loads...

Winchester ranger t's-230+p
Winchester Ranger 45 Auto +P 230 Grain T-Series Gel Test - YouTube

Winchester pdx1 230
Winchester PDX1 Bonded .45 ACP 230 gr: SIM-TEST* w/denim - YouTube

Federal HST 230gr +p
.45 ACP SHORT BARREL TEST: 230 gr +P Federal HST - YouTube

Federal HST 230 gr
.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube


Speer gold dot 230 gr
Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube


I haven't really seen any independent testing, but have reviewed hornady's testing of their new 220 gr +p critical duty and am pretty interested in giving it a hard look. Their other critical duty lines in 9 and 40 don't really expand all that huge, but penetrate great to around 15". I think this bullet design lends itself very well to the .45.
Critical Duty® 45 Auto +P from Hornady® - YouTube

remington golden sabers still have issues with core/jacket separation, unless you get the bonded bullet. They do feed great in most things though, so could be an option for 1911 shooters who's guns won't feed other hollowpoints.

 

[Sebring Pop]

ammo

I am very old school. Any bullet will do, practice, practice, practice, practice bullet placement is far more important.

 

[haris1]

9mm recommendations

I was going to list what I carry which is Hornady critical defense and gold dot hollowpoints but when I read Smokey0118's posts I felt like an illiterate in the presence of a
very accomplished author! Smokey0118, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge!!!

 

[smokey0118]

thanks for the compliment Haris. I appreciate it.

 

[rudybunt]

In my Glock 26 and my S&W BG I use the Hornady Critical defense (or the zombie rounds) both are the same hollow point with the polymer tip.

 

[sw44spl]

I carry regular winchester 147 gr HPs in my G26.in my 6904 I carry PMC starfires thats wht my old police dept issued.

 

[Outrider]

10mm?

Smokey,

Anything on 10mm loads?

 

[smokey0118]

Smokey,

Anything on 10mm loads?

I have less experience with 10mm. A good place for information is here...
Factory 10mm ammo - 10mm-firearms.com

Originally, Cooper thought of the 1cm as a way to get a very heavy projectile with better external ballistics and capacity than a .45, and better whollop than a 9mm. The original loadings were heavy 200+ gr projectiles at medium velocities. In that concept, you've got a soft recoiling bullet that is pretty impressive for terminal ballistics.

It was pumped up to an auto-loading magnum cartridge later on, where many say it realized its full potential. There, you're looking at a 200 gr bullet going 1,300 f/s or so. The issues here are that it tended to have harsher recoil that many people found to be just too much and bullet designs couldn't really handle that kind of velocity and often came apart.

here are some tests with more modern designs that handle it better.
10mm gel tests - 10mm-firearms.com

Again, sorry I can't really help more with this cartridge, but I've not really played around with it yet as much as some others like 9 and 45.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I wondered if I could get some opinions from the forum on the best ammo and why for self defense. I have a S&W 3913 9mm and have been overwhelmed with all the different info on the internet. Coming to the S&W Forum seemed most appropriate since that is my gun.
Thanks

The best in terms of stopping power seems to be Federal 115 grain JHP number 9BPLE and the Winchester 127 grain JHP, both of which are +P+.

 

[smokey0118]

I forgot to post the obligatory 1cm joke picture describing its potential...