SIG P320 Discharges?

[Onomea]

As I had not heard of Ben Stoeger, I looked him up. A well known competitive shooter and very credible guy

I'd post links but since he casually uses profanities — as most of us do — and that breaks our forum rules, I won't.

I also coincidentally found this video from yesterday by John Correa, of Active Self Defense, on the topic: (I've trained with him.)

He says he has great respect for Bruce Gray, but thinks he is wrong on this topic. Correa, too, has banned the P320 and recommends against carrying the gun. (He recommends only using it as a "table gun" at the range and not using it at all from the holster.)

In addition to various government agencies, a lot of well known trainers have banned the P320 from their courses/ranges. (Gunsite and Tom Givens among them, from what I heard in the videos.)

 

[squidsix]

Question:

Since we had so many posts about Seecamp pistols I would like to know if your Seecamp does what my Seecamp .32 does??? If I "milk" the trigger (pull the trigger very slowly for a precision shot) it will misfire every time. On the on the other hand if I pull the trigger quickly and straight through it is reliable.

I might add this condition is not just a Seecamp problem. I have experienced this same problem with revolvers like the "original" Colt Diamondback, and the "original" Colt Python when slowing pulling the trigger in the double action mode.

It seems that when one slowly pulls the trigger in "double action mode" the hammer does not "snap back all the way" before being released to move forward resulting in a very light strike on the primer which causes the gun to misfire.

If you do not have time to run to the range with your .32 Seecamp take an "empty primed case" and try to set it off by "milking the trigger" and see if it fires or not.

Ummmm.

 

[gunbarrel]

FWIW, I have a friend that I grew up with, who enlisted in the US Army in 1976, and retired with some Sargent rank. He first saw action in Granada, and he last saw action in Afghanistan and Iraq in the early days.

So, I asked him about the conventional way they carried the DA 9mm M9 when it was adopted in the 80's and until.the end of his career (the Sig was introduced years after he retired).

He said that inside the perimeter, they had to carry them with an empty chamber and a loaded magazine in the well.

When they were outside the perimeter they always had to carry them "locked and loaded;" meaning having it ready and prepared to use in an instant.

He added that If they were riding on a chopper, they also had to carry them with an empty chamber and a loaded magazine in the well; but, right before they exited the chopper, wthey would "lock and load" the pistol.

 

[bph9]

Ummmm.

sorry wrong post on wrong forum

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

"Ben Stoeger, the pistol training guru, has some very harsh things to say about Bruce Gray in his videos. He doesn't mince words."

I enjoy Ben’s candid, gritty style, BUT… where would his channel be without his constant speculation and drama?

Agree completely!

...but is he wrong?

 

[Equus]

I've never owned a striker gun. Are they generally as accurate as the depicted .38/44 S&W?

I have 4 that will do that, when I do my part. Shockingly enough, one of them is a G19.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

I also coincidentally found this video from yesterday by John Correa, of Active Self Defense, on the topic: (I've trained with him.)

I think this is a very thoughtful, reasoned take and a good video! Thanks for sharing it!

 

[ggibson511960]

3 Ts are stocks, hammer and trigger, not sights.

Tru-Oil is very easy to use and looks good, but it is a very soft finish. Lacquer is much more durable, and you can get it in matte, satin and gloss. I remove the old lacquer finish with lacquer thinner. I tape the checkering with blue painter's tape and sand the wood as little as possible to get a good smooth finish. I seal the wood with a coat of bullseye shellac. I then spray the wood with Watco spray lacquer in 3 light coats. Let dry for at least 3 hours and repeat if necessary. Another benefit of lacquer is that it can be touched up without witness lines.

Reminder the Sig mishap is not a new story. The design of the Smith & Wesson Victory Model (Model 10) was modified in 1945 to include an improved hammer block after a sailor was killed by a loaded revolver discharging when accidentally dropped onto a steel deck. Many don't consider pre-war Smiths drop safe, and carry the hammer on an empty chamber.

An even earlier example of a poorly designed trigger/sear combination is the SMLE Enfield. Early examples of the No. 1 SMLE had a poorly designed trigger that was mounted to the trigger guard iron that was in turn mounted to the stock with wood screws. What could go wrong? The stock swelled with heat or moisture and the carefully fitted sear-striker engagement went to pot. I had one and it was frightening to shoot. The long, soft first stage pull takeup became a random chance unintended discharge. The Brits fixed it by pinning the trigger to the receiver. I don't know how any polymer frame pistol could be made safe with a single stage striker mechanism split between frame and slide. Polymer plastic fantastic pistols I am familiar with have cheesy sheet metal flanges molded into the frame to control slide position.

 

[GnarlsR2]

I think this is a very thoughtful, reasoned take and a good video! Thanks for sharing it!

Correa has a bias for profit, just like Gray.

The difference is Gray has done the testing, Correa is just speculating.

Correa's critical comments about Sig’s response is meaningless unless he knows everything that Sig Sauer is doing to deal with the so-called uncommanded discharges.

Protecting his company from possible liability is ethically and legally prudent.

With about 2.5 million P320s being carried and used, why has only a hundred or so had an issue?

Gray explained the one scenario the gun can fire a round without a trigger pull, and all conditions are possible, but extremely unlikely, and have never been seen. That leaves the only plausible reality for the cause of an “uncommanded discharge”: environmental, the holster, or gun handler.

 

[squidsix]

Correa has a bias for profit, just like Gray.

The difference is Gray has done the testing, Correa is just speculating.

Correa's critical comments about Sig’s response is meaningless unless he knows everything that Sig Sauer is doing to deal with the so-called uncommanded discharges.

Protecting his company from possible liability is ethically and legally prudent.

With about 2.5 million P320s being carried and used, why has only a hundred or so had an issue?

Gray explained the one scenario the gun can fire a round without a trigger pull, and all conditions are possible, but extremely unlikely, and have never been seen. That leaves the only plausible reality for the cause of an “uncommanded discharge”: environmental, the holster, or gun handler.

The deceased Airman had his holstered pistol on the desk. It killed him. This is not open to interpretation.
Today the Air Force issued a NOTAM regarding this pistol. This is actually a HUGE deal. It is the official position of the United States Air Force that this pistol is inherently unsafe, and they are very serious about it.
If you dispute that this Airman's pistol killed him uncommanded, I would invite you to go ahead and tell that to his family.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Correa has a bias for profit, just like Gray.

The difference is Gray has done the testing, Correa is just speculating.

Correa's critical comments about Sig’s response is meaningless unless he knows everything that Sig Sauer is doing to deal with the so-called uncommanded discharges.

Protecting his company from possible liability is ethically and legally prudent.

With about 2.5 million P320s being carried and used, why has only a hundred or so had an issue?

Gray explained the one scenario the gun can fire a round without a trigger pull, and all conditions are possible, but extremely unlikely, and have never been seen. That leaves the only plausible reality for the cause of an “uncommanded discharge”: environmental, the holster, or gun handler.

I respectfully disagree with most of what you said but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I especially disagree with the "the only plausible reality for the cause" statement. There are multiple "plausible" realities when you study the design of the gun and factor in poorly made parts and sloppy fit into the equation. Then a lot of stuff suddenly becomes plausible.

People who are in denial that something is amiss with the P320 often like to cite that so far, video evidence is inconclusive and doesn't clearly rule out the possibility of negligence, unsafe handling, or poorly designed holsters. They ignore the reality that people aren't walking around with cameras expecting that "at exactly 5:32 pm, this Sig P320 is going to fire uncommanded, and in the process, shoot a hole in my knee...so lets be sure and setup this camera right here at this angle and stand in this exact spot with good lighting so we can get clear evidence of a malfunction." Things like this are seldom ever 100% conclusive.

But lets assume that in all cases, the gun was in completely sound mechanical condition. The fact that this is happening disproportionally with the Sig P320 and not other striker fired pistols currently would seem to indicate there's more than a little fire at the source of all that smoke. Plus, if the gun is that sensitive to holsters and whatnot... perhaps... just maybe it might just be a poor design, even if "technically" in perfect mechanical working order. No firearm should be that sensitive with such razor thin margin of safety. It is irresponsible and poor engineering practice for any company to release such a design to the market.

 

[Navy vet]

The deceased Airman had his holstered pistol on the desk. It killed him. This is not open to interpretation.
Today the Air Force issued a NOTAM regarding this pistol. This is actually a HUGE deal. It is the official position of the United States Air Force that this pistol is inherently unsafe, and they are very serious about it.
If you dispute that this Airman's pistol killed him uncommanded, I would invite you to go ahead and tell that to his family.

You took the words from my mouth!

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

You took the words from my mouth!

I'm sure the airman's family are very comforted by the fact that out of 2.5 million P320s produced... "only" about 100 have had issues.

...that we know of so far... that have surfaced... that have been reported... and we're certain no other issues will surface later, because all of the "problem" guns have now been weeded out.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

That is NOT a legal way to get around a negligence claim. These are products intended for combat, they should be able to handle too much lube, too little lube or blood, sweat, dust and dirt to some extent.

To say too much lube will cause the gun to fire accidentally, is called an admission against interest, it is an admission of a flaw of design. That alone would let me nail any design engineer or product specialist in a trial.

On accidental discharges, the design requires a much higher standard of care, that say just how and when to lubricate for best function.

Thank you for pointing that out, it matters.

I did not specify that a little bit of lube causes the supposed uncommand firing of the firearm. It was to bring to light the fact that while this could add to the possibility. It would not be unusual for about 90% of all firearm owners to never read anything in a firearms manual other that how to take it apart and clean it, maybe not even then.

Now let's look at the basic design of all striker-fired firearms. Each and every one is an accident looking for a place to happen. They are all inherently unsafe. What else can you call a striker under spring pressure hovering thousandths of an inch over the primer, ready to release and jump forward to set the firearm off at its whim? No matter what you want to think, strikers are not, nor ever will be really safe, no matter who makes it. This is simply because there is nothing locking the striker in place other than a trigger until, for whatever reason, it releases.

 

[squidsix]

I did not specify that a little bit of lube causes the supposed uncommand firing of the firearm. It was to bring to light the fact that while this could add to the possibility. It would not be unusual for about 90% of all firearm owners to never read anything in a firearms manual other that how to take it apart and clean it, maybe not even then.

Now let's look at the basic design of all striker-fired firearms. Each and every one is an accident looking for a place to happen. They are all inherently unsafe. What else can you call a striker under spring pressure hovering thousandths of an inch over the primer, ready to release and jump forward to set the firearm off at its whim? No matter what you want to think, strikers are not, nor ever will be really safe, no matter who makes it. This is simply because there is nothing locking the striker in place other than a trigger until, for whatever reason, it releases.

Incorrect.
The Glock and M&P striker, at rest, does not contain the potential energy required to ignite a primer, AND there is a firing pin safety in the way as well. If the Glock or M&P strike somehow slips off the sear, nothing happens.
The Sig striker is at full compression. If it slips off the .003" sear, it will fire.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

You mean sell it and by a Glock?

No, sell all striker fired firearms and buy a Staccato or other hammer fired firearm.

 

[Taj]

There were no Gen1 .G22 G23 40 cal. just G17s and a small number of G19s. Prefix "EH" is Gen2.

How do I know this? I have a DWJ imports Israeli police trade G17 Gen2 with the Serial number "G 2XXX" frame. It's an odd ball at it has mis-matched numbers matching slide/barrel with a "EP XXX" with a deeper mis aligned stamped "0" on both the slide and barrel. Euro proofs.

As far as I know, it has period parts and is the best shooting 9mm Glock I have.

Like I said, it was 40 years ago. The updates were intended for the first production runs of 22s what ever the Gen was. Glock refused to call them "recalls", but at least stepped up and fixed the issue. I still have a very large box of the "update" kits. I couldn't even guess how many I installed.

 

[ericherte]

Talk about beating a dead horse! 18 pages worth!

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Now let's look at the basic design of all striker-fired firearms. Each and every one is an accident looking for a place to happen. They are all inherently unsafe. What else can you call a striker under spring pressure hovering thousandths of an inch over the primer, ready to release and jump forward to set the firearm off at its whim? No matter what you want to think, strikers are not, nor ever will be really safe, no matter who makes it. This is simply because there is nothing locking the striker in place other than a trigger until, for whatever reason, it releases.

Not correct. All of them have a striker block mechanism that must be fully depressed by the trigger bar projection to move it out of the way of the striker and allow the striker to impact the primer. The stiker block is a physical barrier that fits in a channel on the striker, locking it into place until moved out of the way. This assumes of course that the striker block spring is keeping the striker block properly engaged with the striker. In the P320, unlike all other striker blocks in all other striker fired pistols, the spring is a torsion design with 2 legs and the center of the coil sitting on a post for retention. If it shifts on the post for some reason, one of the legs can fail to engage the striker block or the striker housing, effectively disabling the striker block. In all other pistols, the striker block spring is simply a coil spring completely captured inside a bore, pressing against a plunger, which is infinitely more positive and reliable than Sig's ridiculous design.

On top of that, they all have trigger bar disconnect devices that prevent firing out of battery. Most other striker fired pistols either have a heavier or longer trigger pull that either partially or fully cocks the striker spring. Most outside of Sigs also have a trigger safety to prevent ADs from drop inertia.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

Talk about beating a dead horse! 18 pages worth!

Given that this is a current, ongoing controversy with new cases emerging, one very recent, and given that new evidence is coming to light and people still aren't entirely certain what to believe... I believe the horse is limping but still alive.