Smith & Wesson bringing back no internal lock revolvers for 2024?

[Hapworth]

Let the mod do their job as, although you want to be one, you're not one. Both Tom S. (who is a Mod) and member nksmfamjp quoted the same snippet out of a previous comment that I am well within my right to respond to. Maybe you should quote and scold them instead of me.

I've been having this discussion about S&W finally removing the lock ad nauseam for decades with someone always claiming they "credible" information from some unknown person they will not name. I will believe it when I see it. If they do, it will most likely still be on their J-frames and not with their larger K-N frames. If true, I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of their existing no lock J-frame models but with a longer barrel or different trim.

We police ourselves around here so the mods don't have to do *quite* so much work.

An actually credible source for information germane to this discussion has self-identified in the thread. We'll see what comes of it, but it's quite the step up from "some unknown person"; I note even you have inserted a hedge to your "never ever" assertions in your most recent edit.

In the meantime, like I said, you're not wrong in your points -- I agree with you -- but these threads always get locked because of the naysayers and the folks who feel compelled answer them, and neither side is even on topic.

 

[Mehutch]

There are some artificially rare models that will be collectable. But I'm ready to break the piggy bank on a no-IL .357 8 shot or three. Plus a nice 57, 617, and maybe even a 29.

Got it covered!













and many more!

 

[gnappi]

I don't care. I still wouldn't buy one. It wouldn't improve their quality control. The lock has never been an issue for me. I have a 625-8 with a lock.

You may be right but I can say this... I spent my summer vacations in my dad's shop running a lathe. When dad or anyone in the business bid a job every hole, every tool change, every single assembly point and every sub part added up a cost.

I would say that it would cost quite a bit less and "perhaps" the time gained "might" be spent on testing?

Dunno and don't care. most of mine pre-date locks.

 

[Chrisj357]

A Positive for S&W

I have five Smith revolvers. Four I bought new and they have the IL. One is a 1970's era M-19. All are high quality absolutely fine firearms. I don't ever use the IL.

500S&W 6.5"
686 4"
637
642
M-19 4"

I have sent two of them back for repair. The customer service and the work they did was top notch!

The 500 needed a cylinder spring replaced. They explained how in the heat of battle building the guns some "normal" springs got installed instead of the beefed up X-Frame ones. They apologized and had my gun back to me very quickly.

The M-19 was slap wore out. All I asked them to do was correct the push-off problem caused by a previous owner trigger job and correct excessive end shake. They informed me that this WOULD NOT BE WARRANTY WORK. I cleared them to make the repaires on my dime. I figured I had bought the gun in 1981 for $200 so a few hundred more would be acceptable. They called back and said the forcing cone was trash. I thought the next thing they were going to say was turn the gun into a paper weight, it's done. But they said they could cut a new forcing cone. I said GO FOR IT! Again, they did the work and got the gun back to me very quickly and the charge was…..are you ready? $100.00

I am still a Smith and Wesson believer.

 

[JWintergreen]

The current teaser video from Lipsey's (on their facebook page) appears to show an Airweight Centennial with big dot sights.

As y'all know, S&W has been making no-lock DAO J-Magnum frame revolvers for years now.

I hope there is something else to these rumors, but I'm not keeping my hopes up after all these years.

 

[Miami_JBT]

My 22 M&P Compact has the lock along with a magazine disconnect, neither of which is on the other M&P pistols. Always seemed like a way for new shooters to learn the bad habit of relying on safeties not present on M&Ps in other calibers.

Big Blue released the first generation of M&P Automatics with a key lock as an option, on top of a manual safety.

 

[Miami_JBT]

There is some history of other gun companies incorporating a key lock built into the gun and discontinuing it. The two companies that come to mind are Remington and Sako. Both incorporated a key lock into the bolt cocking piece of their rifles: Remington 700 and Sako 75. Remington called it the "J-Lock." It was introduced in 2002 and phased out in 2005. Sako briefly introduced a similar type key lock around the same time frame and discontinued it as well. Apparently, consumers did not like these internal locks.

Anyhow, there is some history of other gun companies implementing and subsequently discontinuing an internal key lock.

Ruger had a key lock on the P345 and New Model Vaquero for a period of time. They never put a lock on any other semi-auto last I saw, since they ended production of the P345 and they stopped putting locks on Vaqueros.

 

[NY-1]

The current teaser video from Lipsey's (on their facebook page) appears to show an Airweight Centennial with big dot sights.

As y'all know, S&W has been making no-lock DAO J-Magnum frame revolvers for years now.

I hope there is something else to these rumors, but I'm not keeping my hopes up after all these years.

This is interesting. Both of these new Lipsey's models don't have locks. They're still J-frame Centennial models, but it's encouraging to see.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24b7MvVaL4I[/ame]

 

[Miami_JBT]

This is interesting. Both of these new Lipsey's models don't have locks. They're still J-frame Centennial models, but it's encouraging to see.

Lipsey's Exclusive: Smith & Wesson Ultimate Carry J-Frame - YouTube

S&W has been making no-lock J-Frames for a while now. It stems from the early '00s when they were still agency approved and agency purchased BUGs for cops. A number of agencies and individual officers said they won't buy 'em with locks. So, being that the DAO Centennial J-Frame was and is their biggest seller. They obliged those consumers. Since then, Big Blue has done batches of no-lock J-Frames as "distributor exclusives" or "pro-series" or "performance center" guns.

Since then, the market for LE agencies have shifted to semiautomatics only for BUGs and off-duty pieces. The run if no-lock guns is now a marketing gimmick for the civilian sales. Heck, back in 2012, the agency I worked for at the time specifically banned any agent from qualifying with a revolver per policy. Even the NYPD, which had a number of grandfathered old goats with wheel-guns, told the remaining few to either retire, go to the rubber-gun squad and ride a desk, or finally qualify with an automatic.

When I last spoke with the egg-heads at Big Blue who weren't bean-counters. They told me corporately, only Centennial J-Frames will be made without locks due to the following reasons.

1. Market Demand
2. K, L, and N framed guns don't sell as much and thr biggest market for them is states like California where the handgun approved roster controls the market. The guns are grandfathered in and the market there is greater since a number of buyers don't want to deal with neutered magazines and such.
3. J-Frames sell, sell, and sell across the country and there, you have picky buyers. But since the market is more spread out, they can cater to those market demands.
4. J-Frame sized guns are the largest segment of revolvers sold. Yes, more people today own wheel guns than during he golden era. But today's market is folks who want a compact and lightweight gun they can conceal carry. Also, for a while, J-Frames were relatively cheap compared to the other models S&W made. And that was due to economy of scale. S&W physically makes more J-Frames than any other revolver.

 

[JamesWP]

I'm in the under 40 bunch that would buy a new smith or 3 IF it had no lock. Two piece barrel, mim, etc wouldn't bother me.

 

[dozer]

They look pretty nice, good additions to the Centennial models

 

[mchom]

This may have been said in earlier post. I think Colts success with the Python might be changing mindsets. And I heard something on Youtube about a possible DLC Python. Interesting times.

 

[ladder13]

 

[JWintergreen]

I'm not getting revolver vibes from that ad campaign. It seems that S&W will come out with a cure for cancer before they make a K/L/N frame revolver without a lock.

 

[hkcavalier]

Got it covered!

I do too, somewhat, but I'd rather get new no-IL guns than hunt for nice used examples. I enjoy the uncertainty of the hunt, but certain boxes need to be checked.

 

[Well Armed]

This is interesting. Both of these new Lipsey's models don't have locks. They're still J-frame Centennial models, but it's encouraging to see.

Lipsey's Exclusive: Smith & Wesson Ultimate Carry J-Frame - YouTube

Those are trims to revolvers that already existed without a lock. Is this what all the hype was about? What some had it on "good authority" from some super secret personal high up in S&W's organization? This is nothing new at all.

This is the same annual hype. I knew S&W wasn't offering K, L, N, etc frames without the IL. Now we'll have to wait until the Jan 22 for S&W to reveal their new clothing line, knife, SAO revolver or lever action rifle to put this rumor to rest for another 12 months.

 

[Well Armed]

Smith's revolver sales have been consistently above 200k. They sold more during panic buy eras but stay pretty consistent. 2014-2016 was the Sandy Hook, Obama AWB, and Hillary scare. Sales dropped when Trump was elected. Sales jumped after COVID and George Floyd. Now it's a buyer's market again, so their sales have dropped. In any event, it doesn't seem that Colt, Ruger, or any other revolver manufacturer have hurt Smiths sales to the point that they would be forced to consider removing the IL. S&W has been out selling their competitors even with having the IL. Colt's price point compared to S&W and Ruger will always get in its way. Despite the loud minority, most consumers are still buying and prefer S&W revolvers regardless of the lock. Many Smith, Ruger, Kimber, and Taurus fanboys do not like the "pull" cylinder release or the fact that the cylinder revolvers in the opposite direction, which they see as a serious con and bottlenecked for self-defense applications as it's counterproductive to what they're use to. In any event, S&W revolver sales have remained steady despite Colt's re-emergence.

Revolvers Manufactured:

Smith & Wesson
2013 -> 225,777
2014 -> 268,722
2015 -> 274,136
2016 -> 294,680
2017 -> 207,384
2018 -> 210,333
2019 -> 515,381
2021 -> 232,476

Ruger
2013 -> 295,661
2014 -> 281,430
2015 -> 256,185
2016 -> 249,548
2017 -> 172,104
2018 -> 145,534
2019 -> 184,197
2021 -> 276,999

Colt
2013 -> 4
2014 -> 2,217
2015 -> 1,492
2016 -> 943
2017 -> 7,342
2018 -> 16,697
2019 -> 21,049
2021 -> 65,062

 

[Model 15-4ever]

... We have a highly credible, well-placed industry professional strongly indicating we'll see this announced in a couple days.

 

[Miami_JBT]

I'm not getting revolver vibes from that ad campaign. It seems that S&W will come out with a cure for cancer before they make a K/L/N frame revolver without a lock.

Maybe more Chinese made clothing and gas station grade knives.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Smith's revolver sales have been consistently above 200k. They sold more during panic buy eras but stay pretty consistent. 2014-2016 was the Sandy Hook, Obama AWB, and Hillary scare. Sales dropped when Trump was elected. Sales jumped after COVID and George Floyd. Now it's a buyer's market again, so their sales have dropped. In any event, it doesn't seem that Colt, Ruger, or any other revolver manufacturer have hurt Smiths sales to the point that they would be forced to consider removing the IL. S&W has been out selling their competitors even with having the IL. Colt's price point compared to S&W and Ruger will always get in its way. Despite the loud minority, most consumers are still buying and prefer S&W revolvers regardless of the lock. Many Smith, Ruger, Kimber, and Taurus fanboys do not like the "pull" cylinder release or the fact that the cylinder revolvers in the opposite direction, which they see as a serious con and bottlenecked for self-defense applications as it's counterproductive to what they're use to. In any event, S&W revolver sales have remained steady despite Colt's re-emergence.

Revolvers Manufactured:

Smith & Wesson
2013 -> 225,777
2014 -> 268,722
2015 -> 274,136
2016 -> 294,680
2017 -> 207,384
2018 -> 210,333
2019 -> 515,381
2021 -> 232,476

Ruger
2013 -> 295,661
2014 -> 281,430
2015 -> 256,185
2016 -> 249,548
2017 -> 172,104
2018 -> 145,534
2019 -> 184,197
2021 -> 276,999

Colt
2013 -> 4
2014 -> 2,217
2015 -> 1,492
2016 -> 943
2017 -> 7,342
2018 -> 16,697
2019 -> 21,049
2021 -> 65,062

Again, the majority of those guns that Big Blue is selling are run-of-the-mill J-Frames that John Q Public buys for the wife, Susie Soccer-Mom, after the Gun Shop Counter-Monkey recommend it for her self-defense.

Those guns basically get half a box of overpriced .38 Special +P shot through 'em and they live the rest of their lives in sock drawers, the top of closet shelves, the bottom of purses, and in car center-consoles or glove-boxes.

That's S&W's number one selling revolver. The bargain basement Model 642, with and without the lock.

Until Colt makes such a gun at the same price, they won't overtake S&W. Ruger's LCR is their attempt to go after that segment since the SP101 is overpriced and a brick. Taurus does well with their Model 85 and Model 856, since those are usually dirt cheap and the thrifty buyer likes 'em.

The Colt Cobra, is still too highly priced to compete against the bog-standard Model 642.