SOLVED Help Identifying Low-Number Hand Ejector

[USRaider]

Hi Everyone! I just purchased a hand ejector in .32-20, and am not sure which model it is. (I am certain it was not the .32 cartridge I had hoped for, but that's a story for a different time.)

Here is what I see:

• Hand Ejector
• "32 Winchester Ctg"
• Nickel Finish
• Serial 55X (3 digits on the butt)
• Fixed Sights
• 4 screw (no screw in front of the
• NO underlug
• Curved butt/heel (See pictures, I am unsure what terminology is correct here)
• Tension screw on front of grip

Thanks for looking! (Picture background blurred to reduce file size)

 

[murphydog]

It is an early (wait for it) - .32/20 Hand Ejector, model of 1899, a K or medium frame. They may have also called the chambering .32 Winchester. It is the only type that did not have the forward locking point for the extractor rod.

It has a round butt grip frame, as did all of this model's production at the time. You may have been looking for an S & W in .32 Long, but at that time they were only made on the I or .32 frame. K frame .32 Longs are scarce and usually have Target sights.

 

[USRaider]

And there it is, my answer! Thank you!

I suspected it would be the wrong .32 but bought it for a cheap price with vague information, so took the gamble.

The (overly long and wordy) back story: A few years ago I purchased a Colt New Police in 32 Long Colt. At the time I was unaware that it was different from .32 Long, as the other 32 colt is apparently a renaming of the same thing.

Before realizing, I bought several boxes of 32 S&W long, and some snap caps. Cue the ongoing hunt for .32 Colt Long at reasonable prices, and a relatively cheap .32 S&W long shooter.

Saw this .32/20 Hand Ejector, model of 1899 listed vaguely, knew it stood a good chance of being yet another different .32, but had hope in my heart.

Gambled and won a different prize than anticipated.

Thanks again!

It is an early (wait for it) - .32/20 Hand Ejector, model of 1899, a K or medium frame. They may have also called the chambering .32 Winchester. It is the only type that did not have the forward locking point for the extractor rod.

It has a round butt grip frame, as did all of this model's production at the time. You may have been looking for an S & W in .32 Long, but at that time they were only made on the I or .32 frame. K frame .32 Longs are scarce and usually have Target sights.

 

[rct269]

And it's REALLY old!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[USRaider]

Close to antique, but no cigar.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Your .32-20 is the same gun as the .38 M&P Model 1899, except for caliber. The action is made up of flat springs and levers and has been obsolete since 1905. Your gun still has the knob on the extractor rod. It's removable and they tend to fall off and get lost. So, at least you won't have to find a replacement. It may be the angle of your pictures, but the extractor rod appears to not be parallel to the barrel. Does it wobble when the cylinder is rotated? If so, it may be bent. That can be fixed, if necessary. Anyway, congratulations on acquiring an early example of the .32-20 M&P handgun!

 

[USRaider]

Strangely, it appears to remain at that angle.
The knob has some vise marks on it, I suspect it had fallen off and the previous owner aggressively prevented a repeat incident.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Your .32-20 is the same gun as the .38 M&P Model 1899, except for caliber. The action is made up of flat springs and levers and has been obsolete since 1905. Your gun still has the knob on the extractor rod. It's removable and they tend to fall off and get lost. So, at least you won't have to find a replacement. It may be the angle of your pictures, but the extractor rod appears to not be parallel to the barrel. Does it wobble when the cylinder is rotated? If so, it may be bent. That can be fixed, if necessary. Anyway, congratulations on acquiring an early example of the most popular .38 Special handgun in history!

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Strangely, it appears to remain at that angle.

Well, if it doesn't wobble when the cylinder is rotated, the cylinder alignment may be off. The rod should have a uniform gap with the barrel over its length. Before you shoot it, I suggest having a gunsmith check it out.

 

[USRaider]

The barrel appears to cant upward slightly. When I hold the revolver frame face and ejector rod as my point of reference, they appear to be straight.

It will be looked at before firing for sure.

 

[StrawHat]

As Guy mentioned, the action is comprised of a series of flat springs and levers. Parts for this model are difficult, if not bordering on impossible, to locate. I would suggest only judicious firing and not much of it.

Kevin

 

[mikepriwer]

There are several groups of 32-20's that were chambered in 32 long. Some were targets, and some were M&P's. The groups were typically 10-20 revolvers, and they seem to have started in about 1909. They are seldom seen, but they do exist.

Mike Priwer

 

[USRaider]

That's interesting to know. This seems to be a plain jane .32-20, 32 S&W snap caps and rounds do not fit the cylinder properly.

Upon deeper inspection, it is clear someone has been here before. (And not just because they signed the grip)

The screw that holds in the cylinder crane arm was in the wrong socket (I have corrected it).

The spring for the detent in the crane arm appears to be missing (I have not corrected it).

The barrel and side plate are matching.

It definitely seems that the mechanical issue is a bent barrel. Perhaps it was "tuned" for accuracy. Or more likely, maybe they had an accident and adjusted the fouled up sight accordingly.

 

[murphydog]

There are several groups of 32-20's that were chambered in 32 long. Some were targets, and some were M&P's. The groups were typically 10-20 revolvers, and they seem to have started in about 1909. They are seldom seen, but they do exist.

Mike Priwer

I had never heard of these before. Anyone you know have one, and a photo?

 

[USRaider]

Here is the barrel curve/dog leg that I appear to see. The red line is a hyperbolic representation of what I see. The photos don't seem to do it justice, but it definitely looks a bit like a Garand operating rod.

It seems to cant up right, perhaps it was dropped? The smallest crescent segment of the lower left edge of the cylinder face can be seen in the locked position on every chamber.

 

[MajorD]

Just to give you some additional caliber information ( and confusion!)
S&W developed the 32 S&W in the 1870's for the small top break revolvers, then lengthened it for use in the small I frame hand ejectors. It would later be lengthened twice more, once to make the 32 H&R magnum, then again to create the 327 federal magnum. ( actual bullet diameter is about .312 so really a 31 not a 32.)
Colt started with the 32 colt ( short case) then lengthened that to a longer case in a similar fashion. The key difference is unlike most centerfires these used an Outside lubricated bullet close to the same diameter of the case ( much like what you see in a 22 long rifle) with larger bullet/ bore diameters
This was phased out in the early 1900's over time.
Colt didn't want to put 32 S&W marking on their guns, so designed a "new" 32 cartridge called the 32 colt new police ( often marked on guns as 32 NP) which is simply the same 32 S&W long case with a flat point instead of a traditional round nose bullet.
32/20 was also called 32 Winchester or 32 WCF ( Winchester centerfire ) and was chambered in the K size S&W and colt 's similar size frame as it was too long for the smaller frame sizes of the early 1900's. When using this cartridge, caution must be advised. The ammo produced in the last 30-40 years in 32/20 has been at a pressure level safe for both rifles and pistols. Back in the 1950's and earlier, to provide more power in rifles like the Winchester model 1892 which is a strong action some ammo companies made a high pressure/ velocity load designed for rifles only which is far too high pressure to use in a revolver safely. These are often headstamped 32/20 HV M92 or similar.
I used a lot of 32/20 in both a rifle and pistol years ago, and any random loose old ammo I found was always fired in the rifle first, then used for reloading to a pressure level safe for both types of guns.
32 colt or long colt I don't think has been factory made since the 1960's, so all you will find for that will be very old stock ammo. Old stock is not at all bad, but you will probably have to visit some crusty old gun shops to find it

 

[USRaider]

Thanks for the background. I did see that Winchester was advertising .32 Short Colt for cowboy matches in the somewhat recent past, definitely more recent than the 60s.

X32SCP | Winchester Ammunition

I have not seen any of that in the wild, though I haven't been looking all that long. There are boutique ammo makers for long colt, but they sell at the same $3-$4 per round as the old stock stuff. I might as well buy cases, a lead mold, press and dies, and load black powder cartridges myself.

Just to give you some additional caliber information ( and confusion!)
S&W developed the 32 S&W in the 1870's for the small top break revolvers, then lengthened it for use in the small I frame hand ejectors. It would later be lengthened twice more, once to make the 32 H&R magnum, then again to create the 327 federal magnum. ( actual bullet diameter is about .312 so really a 31 not a 32.)
Colt started with the 32 colt ( short case) then lengthened that to a longer case in a similar fashion. The key difference is unlike most centerfires these used an Outside lubricated bullet close to the same diameter of the case ( much like what you see in a 22 long rifle) with larger bullet/ bore diameters
This was phased out in the early 1900's over time.
Colt didn't want to put 32 S&W marking on their guns, so designed a "new" 32 cartridge called the 32 colt new police ( often marked on guns as 32 NP) which is simply the same 32 S&W long case with a flat point instead of a traditional round nose bullet.
32/20 was also called 32 Winchester or 32 WCF ( Winchester centerfire ) and was chambered in the K size S&W and colt 's similar size frame as it was too long for the smaller frame sizes of the early 1900's. When using this cartridge, caution must be advised. The ammo produced in the last 30-40 years in 32/20 has been at a pressure level safe for both rifles and pistols. Back in the 1950's and earlier, to provide more power in rifles like the Winchester model 1892 which is a strong action some ammo companies made a high pressure/ velocity load designed for rifles only which is far too high pressure to use in a revolver safely. These are often headstamped 32/20 HV M92 or similar.
I used a lot of 32/20 in both a rifle and pistol years ago, and any random loose old ammo I found was always fired in the rifle first, then used for reloading to a pressure level safe for both types of guns.
32 colt or long colt I don't think has been factory made since the 1960's, so all you will find for that will be very old stock ammo. Old stock is not at all bad, but you will probably have to visit some crusty old gun shops to find it

 

[Retired W4]

... Before you shoot it, I suggest having a gunsmith check it out.

I concur.

 

[mojave30cal]

Can you tell us what is serial number is?

 

[mikepriwer]

Alan

Here is the link to one that I just bought. Still waiting to receive it.

Just a moment...

Next is a better copy of the factory letter.

Here are two that I have owned for several years.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[USRaider]

3 digit 55X (if you meant me!)

Can you tell us what is serial number is?

 

[glowe]

Here is the barrel curve/dog leg that I appear to see. . . It seems to cant up right, perhaps it was dropped? . . .

You have a very big problem there, as I think the barrel is 1/4" to 1/2" high at the muzzle! The barrel/frame is indeed bent up and there is no way I would shoot the gun before addressing this problem. More likely it was used to hit something or someone. It does resemble a hammer and old-time law enforcement were not adverse to "buffalo" crooks and criminals.

You should find a gunsmith that does work on older revolvers. I would think it possible to bend the barrel/frame back into position, but one must be looking very closely for distress to the frame before firing. It would be good to take some pictures around the barrel/frame/cylinder. First, take a picture of the cylinder gap at the rear of the barrel, looking for visible space difference between the top and bottom of the barrel. Take a picture of the front of the yoke/frame to look for misalignment when the cylinder if closed. Lastly, a picture of the rear of the cylinder and the rebound plate, again looking for differences between the top and bottom of the cylinder.

Here is what a properly aligned barrel on a 32 Winchester Model 1899 should look like. Also, let me add your image and it looks like 1/4" to me.

 

[DARE]

I had a similar problem with a .44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model. The barrel was pointing up enough that the cylinder would not latch. The frame was bent where the barrel enters the frame.
One of our members made me a tool to correct the problem. It is a brass rod turned to barrel diameter. The rod is threaded so a pointer can be attached. The point should align with the firing pin hole. When I started the point was low on the firing pin hole because the barrel was pointing up.
Gradually applied pressure until the point lined up with the firing pin hole and problem fixed. The gun shoots just fine.

 

[USRaider]

If a brass rod is enough to do that effectively, I am certainly interested.
Do you know if that user is still around here and would gice it a shot?

*Edit* It occurs to me that I will also need to add material back to the front sight. The ugly gun gets uglier.

I had a similar problem with a .44 Hand Ejector 2nd Model. The barrel was pointing up enough that the cylinder would not latch. The frame was bent where the barrel enters the frame.
One of our members made me a tool to correct the problem. It is a brass rod turned to barrel diameter. The rod is threaded so a pointer can be attached. The point should align with the firing pin hole. When I started the point was low on the firing pin hole because the barrel was pointing up.
Gradually applied pressure until the point lined up with the firing pin hole and problem fixed. The gun shoots just fine.

 

[DARE]

I will contact the guy and see if he will make you a tool. The brass rod worked fine for me. One thing that occurs to me is that a .44 caliber rod would be stronger than a .32 caliber.
I would think any decent machinist could make one for you.

 

[steelslaver]

I am the guy who made the tool.
The rod is mostly used as a pointer. As it was made to fit the lands of the rifling and once in place the tip of the threaded piece should line up with the hole in center of the firing pin bushing.If not then pressure can be applied near the muzzle of the barrel to form the frame at barrel juncture back to the point where irt does lined up.

As your is an 1899 32-30 the barrel and frame are threaded at .500-36 the same size as the I and J frames. This area being lighter than later model K frames it would also be easier to get deformed especially with that long barrel and probably be easier to reform

Being land diameter it will not go down the barrel if the barrel itself is bent but will hang up at the bend.

As the groove dia of a 32 cal is .312 AND THE land dia is about .300 You could get a fair idea of the problem with a piece of smooth 1/4" round stock, that was ground to a centered point on one end. With a 6" barrel it will give you come idea, But, once the rod is in the barrel against the recoil shield you could mark it at the muzzle and forcing cone . Remove it and place 2 tight wraps of scotch tape by each mark so that they will be in barrel when rod is in place. Try not to have any over lap on the 2 wraps. Then reinsert the round stock and the tape will hold the rod closer to barrels center and give you a better idea of how far off it is

The best option would be to turn a piece to 5/16 brass rod down to .300 so it barely slipped down the barrel.

The old method way to detect bent barrels was to hold a candle near one end in a dark room with the muzzle pointed at a piece of paper a distance away. A straight barrel will project a round spot and a bent on an oval. The narrow part of the oval being the direction of the bend.

 

[DWalt]

I had never heard of these before. Anyone you know have one, and a photo?

There were some post-WWII M&Ps made in .32 S&W Long. Not many, and most were exported, never to return. One of the least common S&W handguns. The old .32 Colt cartridge is very difficult to find, and there is no other more available cartridge that has a case that can be reformed to it.

 

[steelslaver]

The good news is it is made out of steel which is very formable with proper forces applied

LOL, I learned a long time ago (about 40-45 years)when I had a "normal job" as a copier repair man, that the customer doesn't get as nearly as conserned when you bill them for forming something as apposed to bending it. I was really good at fixing copiers, but not so good at fixing customers, where the real problem often laid.

You can straighten a bowed barrel by careful use a hydraulic jack or clamps. If it the frame is distorted where thee barrel joins it, I would clamp the top strap to a piece of heavy flat bar and uses small wedges under the barrel to form it back to where it belongs. But the old school method to adjust barrels was a to use an educated strike or 2 with a babbit bar. I have lots of lead, and babbit and even several brass hammers of various sizes, but not the guts to learn how much and how hard to wack one. So, prefer applying slow controlled force. Usually when forming metal you will get some spring back . If I form something to just right and it springs back say 1/16", I then press it 1/16" past perfect and allow it to spring back to the correct spot.

I collected up a bent 8 3/6 38 special barrel and was able to get it back straight. I also collected some bulged barrels and have had varying success on those. A thin 1911 barrel came out decent. One with a rib is being difficult and a heavy Ruger barrel needs more force than I have available. A 20 tons hydraulic jack. I suspect a friends hydraulic hose fitting crimper could do it, but the difference between just right and much would be a split second on the controls and it would leave the outside ugly

 

[glowe]

. . . It occurs to me that I will also need to add material back to the front sight. The ugly gun gets uglier.

The 32-20 shot much lower than the 38, so the round front sight was always lower. No need to worry as it appears totally original in your pictures. A couple of 1899s, one on the left is a 32 Winchester.

 

[USRaider]

Well, if so, it seems they may have tried to shape it to their liking.

The 32-20 shot much lower than the 38, so the round front sight was always lower. No need to worry as it appears totally original in your pictures. A couple of 1899s, one on the left is a 32 Winchester.

 

[USRaider]

It appears that the frame is slightly bent, and I do mean slightly. I did not use calipers, but the top of the cone is closer to the cylinder face than the bottom. Hard to see with the naked eye.

The front of the crane does appear to be slightly misaligned with the frame.

An amount of flame cutting can be seen on the bottom of the top strap. Yet the bore is quite clean. This might be the only well shot flaking revolver I've ever seen where someone cleaned it.

You have a very big problem there, as I think the barrel is 1/4" to 1/2" high at the muzzle! The barrel/frame is indeed bent up and there is no way I would shoot the gun before addressing this problem. More likely it was used to hit something or someone. It does resemble a hammer and old-time law enforcement were not adverse to "buffalo" crooks and criminals.

You should find a gunsmith that does work on older revolvers. I would think it possible to bend the barrel/frame back into position, but one must be looking very closely for distress to the frame before firing. It would be good to take some pictures around the barrel/frame/cylinder. First, take a picture of the cylinder gap at the rear of the barrel, looking for visible space difference between the top and bottom of the barrel. Take a picture of the front of the yoke/frame to look for misalignment when the cylinder if closed. Lastly, a picture of the rear of the cylinder and the rebound plate, again looking for differences between the top and bottom of the cylinder.

Here is what a properly aligned barrel on a 32 Winchester Model 1899 should look like. Also, let me add your image and it looks like 1/4" to me.