SV Red Letter Victory Auction

[chiefdave]

Admin Edit:
Since we missed this till after the auction was closed, I'll leave the thread up.


However, I will remind you all that the rules atate-

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Do NOT participate in discussion of current auctions or ads.
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original post:


There is a red letter Victory listed on a major online auction with a SV prefix. Every red letter I've see has either been a pre or very early V revolver. Maybe Ordnance Guy can tell what the data base says. While I don't have a SV Victory in my collection I'm very suspicious of this example.

 

[opoefc]

Is the "Red Letter" stamping identical to known original stampings on early Victories ? The dies to stamp those guns ( "Property of U.S.Navy" ) were sold as scrap after WW2 . Ed.

 

[Donald Paul]

… if it's an SV, {SAFETY VICTORY}, it's from the end of WWII.
{Say 1945-46}.

 

[DWalt]

I would also be EXTREMELY suspicious about its authenticity for several reasons. The Red Letter marking was engraved, not stamped, and not done at the factory, so there are no factory records. Every one I have been aware of has been from early in the pre-Victory to Victory series, none in the SV series. Very easily faked by anyone having access to an engraving machine, and there is no known way to prove or disprove its legitimacy.

 

[ordnanceguy]

There is a red letter Victory listed on a major online auction with a SV prefix. Every red letter I've see has either been a pre or very early V revolver. Maybe Ordnance Guy can tell what the data base says.

Hello Chief:

If your question is about the same SV prefix Victory that I looked at online today I would say that your suspicion is probably warranted. The serial number for the revolver in question is consistent with a May, 1945 shipped revolver. However, the next highest serial number for a "Red Letter Navy" Victory in the Victory Model Database was shipped about 2 years earlier in June, 1943.

HTH.

 

[opoefc]

Looks like it's another example of that auction house selling fake S&Ws. Ed.

 

[chiefdave]

The auction closed with a high bid of $955 for a SV Victory with poor finish, non matching stocks and what is likely a faked Navy property marking. The seller owes him dinner and a movie.

 

[Absalom]

Since the auction is over, we can post the link in case anyone hasn't seen the gun:

S&W late war Victory .38 special PROPERTY OF US NAVY - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 855942150

The majority of "historic" guns probably change hands between people who don't know enough about them. I doubt the seller really acted in bad faith, and since nobody can prove it's a fake, it is what it is. I couldn't swear either that there wasn't a bored Navy armorer sitting around in later 1945 with access to a pantograph ...

I would think, however, that anyone willing to lay out that kind of money would be aware enough or at least able to do the basic research.

 

[anonymouscow]

Is there any way to spot a possible fake besides knowing the range of serial numbers it should fall under?

I was trying to compare different examples of markings of "Property of U.S. Navy". The only differences I have noticed are slightly different spacing between words, I am not sure if I am comparing real/fake vs real/fake, but I imagine there is going to be some variation in spacing among actual examples so it's probably not a method to make a determination.

 

[Absalom]

Is there any way to spot a possible fake besides knowing the range of serial numbers it should fall under?
....

Not beyond a reasonable doubt. The serial range is your best indicator. If it's late enough to have a US PROPERTY stamping, that would almost certainly disqualify it.

Most of the Red Letter Navy guns had no Navy topstrap stamping yet (that's why they were engraved), but according to Pate there are double-marked guns. But not all Navy-shipped 1942 guns without Navy topstrap stamping were engraved. So there is no 100% proof of anything there.

As for the engraving itself, you won't usually be able to tell. Re-painted red is obvious, but this type of engraving was standard industrial practice back then, and this does not involve any proprietary Navy roll stamps where little details could be off and tell a fake.

Someone could probably have bought a surplus pantograph at some government auction, in which case the fake would actually be genuine, just not original

 

[DWalt]

I can't think of a foolproof method to determine if one is a fake or not. Certainly there would be greater suspicion if it has a higher serial number (all examples on my list have low SNs), and also if it was not lettered as originally being a Navy gun. Aside from that, anyone with access to an engraving machine could do a perfect engraving copy. So far I have not seen a good explanation as to why they were engraved in the first place and by whom, beyond making guesses. Might be possible to do a chemical analysis of the paint to see if it could have been from the WWII era, but that would be expensive.

Not too long ago I worked at a place that had a digital engraving machine, which worked almost like a word processor. You could adjust it for any font, size, and spacing built into it, and it offered quite a few choices, even script. It could even be adjusted to engrave on curved surfaces. It was a large machine, about half the size of a pool table, and could engrave on fairly large items if necessary. The older engraving machines were built on the pantograph design and those would have brass plates with master letters and numbers to be followed by a scribe. You could select the font and and adjust the size of the engraving. I have used those.

 

[anonymouscow]

Thank you for the replies, I am just curious from an educational standpoint.

I have Pate's book, but I may be more confused by it than helped, page 141 the caption for a Property of U.S. Navy reads "Often the marking, which is usually stamped but may be engraved, is filled with red paint. Inexplicably, they continued the practice, and revolvers with both factory stamped Navy and Army markings may be found marked this way. This revolver, serial number V261988, was shipped to "USN Oakland" on 3/20/43 and is also marked "U.S. NAVY" on the top strap.

So the marking on the left side might be stamped or engraved?

And, it might have Navy and Army markings, as in, Navy or Army (U.S. Property) top strap?

But, typically they would be marked US Navy on the left side because they were not marked on the top strap?

I assume this could also mean there are some that went to the Navy in a certain range that have no top strap marking and are also not marked on the side?

I am pretty new to the Victory model, (I actually have question about another Victory that sold at auction recently, but I don't want to post in bad form) but looking at the auction of the one in this thread sent me down the rabbit hole.

 

[Waveski]

I like this part :
"Finish is thin and freckled but no corrosion anywhere that I could find.
Isn't the freckling a form of shallow corrosion?

Would that revolver be worth that amount of money if it were authentic , given the poor condition?

 

[Absalom]

I like this part :
"Finish is thin and freckled but no corrosion anywhere that I could find.
Isn't the freckling a form of shallow corrosion?

Would that revolver be worth that amount of money if it were authentic , given the poor condition?

Yep, likely.

Decent-condition Red Letter guns that are given the benefit of the doubt as likely authentic do change hands in the 4-digit levels, and the 1500 buy-now would have been realistic without the warning flags.

So assuming the buyer was not aware of these, he would think he got a good deal at below 1000 even in this condition.

 

[Absalom]

....
I have Pate's book, but I may be more confused by it than helped, page 141 the caption for a Property of U.S. Navy reads "Often the marking, which is usually stamped but may be engraved, is filled with red paint. Inexplicably, they continued the practice, and revolvers with both factory stamped Navy and Army markings may be found marked this way. This revolver, serial number V261988, was shipped to "USN Oakland" on 3/20/43 and is also marked "U.S. NAVY" on the top strap.

1. So the marking on the left side might be stamped or engraved?

2. And, it might have Navy and Army markings, as in, Navy or Army (U.S. Property) top strap?

3. But, typically they would be marked US Navy on the left side because they were not marked on the top strap?

4.I assume this could also mean there are some that went to the Navy in a certain range that have no top strap marking and are also not marked on the side?

Even Pate should not always be taken as gospel.

Regarding your questions ...

1. All I have seen were obviously machine-engraved.

2. I don't think so. I don't know whether the latest known Red Letter that Charlie mentioned, from June 1943, was made late enough to have the US PROPERTY. It's possible, but I wouldn't put my money on trusting one like that.

3. Yes, mostly 1942 guns.

4. Yes. Actually not in a specific range, but throughout 1942, and if I remember correctly, some members here have guns that lettered to the Navy even later, without the topstrap or side marking.

 

[chiefdave]

I like this part :
"Finish is thin and freckled but no corrosion anywhere that I could find.
Isn't the freckling a form of shallow corrosion?

Would that revolver be worth that amount of money if it were authentic , given the poor condition?

If it were in the correct SN range I'd say it would be over the high end based on condition. I sold a red letter (V26862) with U S NAVY top strap stamp, matching stocks, good finish and lettered as a Navy contract for $1600 a couple of years ago.

 

[tenntex32]

I was able to obtain a red letter Navy for my .38spl Victory collection a few years ago for about $600 in cash&trade. (used vg condition S&W442+$200 cash)

It was at a very local small town gunshow and nobody knew what it truly was I guess...……..

I couldn't jump on it fast enough. It is actually a pre-Victory and is not topstrap marked.

Now I need a true Victory s/n red letter Navy example and possibly a topstrap marked red letter Navy example as well!

Dale

 

[handejector]

Since we missed this till after the auction was closed, I'll leave the thread up.


However, I will remind you all that the rules atate-

11. NO Links to current or upcoming auctions or promotion of current or upcoming auctions or discussion of current or upcoming auctions, even in vague and general terms, or GunsAmerica ads, Guns International ads, or other internet listing sites should be posted without permission.
Do NOT participate in discussion of current auctions or ads.
Links to CLOSED auctions and ads are permitted.

Please REPORT posts discussing current auctions and DO NOT participate in the discussion.