THE $$ AND CENTS OF RELOADING AS I SEE IT

[WVSig]

OK, since you want to do a detailed cost analysis, lets talk about the OPPORTUNITY COST of having 3x more funds tied up in your stockpile of factory ammo, versus my having only 1/3 as much tied up in my stockpile of reloading components....

As previously stated the savings per round will allow you to quickly recoup the equipment costs, if you actually shoot more than occasionally and shoot anything other than cheap 9mm.

Ok lets talk about that. Factory loaded ammo has value just ask all the people who hoarded and resold 22lr during the last shortage. You can sell it on forums, you can sell it at guns shows, your local shooting club etc... People will buy it if you price it with the market. It will hold its value a lot better than reloading components.

Once you purchase components and open the container of powder it becomes worthless to anyone but you. Would you buy powder in an open container at a gun show? I surely wouldn't. Primers in boxes ok they will hold value but you can only sell it locally because you can't ship it. Ever try to ship powder or primers as an individual? Brass is worth some $$$ but mainly as scrap metal. The actually bullets will be worth something but not what you paid for it.

Even worse once your have added your labor to the powder, brass, bullets & primer and actually made a round it becomes worthless to anyone but you. It is ironic that when you reload components into ammo it actually looses value. You have added in time and labor and have something worth less then the sum of the individual parts. Again ever try to sell your reloads at a gun show? Ever buy some random guys reloads at a gun show? I would never try to sell my work product and certainly would not buy someone elses.

So if you were going to stockpile something that will hold its value and if there is a real shortage again has a real chance to go up in value loaded ammo is a much better bet. Those who hoarded 22lr did a not better than the 3x you are stating factory ammo costs over reloaded components. Personally if you are buying smart on both ends it is really closer to 2X but either way my point stands. Not a good bet IMHO but certainly better than reloading components or reloaded ammo.

Yes if you shoot enough you will recover the cost of your equipment but that does not mean you should ignore it in your cost calculations does it? I am not saying that people shouldn't reload or that there aren't savings I am simply trying to illustrate that the savings that people often quote in threads like this do not account for all the "cost" factors that go into reloading and that the numbers need to be taken in context and with a grain of salt.

I reload. I think it is worth my time but I would never tell someone how much money "they" are going to save doing it.

 

[BC38]

If I could buy bullets for that price I wouldn't cast either. Just finding cheap alloy is getting harder & harder as tire shops stop using lead ww. Buying alloy @ $1/# means my 147gr 9m cost me $22 in alloy alone. Where are you getting cast that cheap??

Welcome to Summers Enterprises, LLC, makers of fine hard cast lead bullets.

3800 (4 boxes of 950 each) 124gr 9mm cast bullets for $173.60 including shipping = 4-1/2 cents each

3200 (4 boxes of 800 each) 147gr 9mm cast bullets for $161.20 including shipping = 5 cents each

3000 (4 boxes of 750 each) 158gr .357cal cast bullets for $164.00 including shipping = 5-1/2 cents each

2000 (4 boxes of 500 each) 240gr 44cal cast bullets for $150.00 including shipping = 7-1/2 cents each

 

[WVSig]

If I could buy bullets for that price I wouldn't cast either. Just finding cheap alloy is getting harder & harder as tire shops stop using lead ww. Buying alloy @ $1/# means my 147gr 9m cost me $22 in alloy alone. Where are you getting cast that cheap??

If you have an indoor shooting range talk to them and see if you can buy the lead out of their bullet traps. I know a guy who gets all his lead for free because he is buddies with the guy who owns the range. Even if they are selling it for scrap it will be cheaper than buying from the scrap dealer.

 

[WVSig]

Does it make sense to count that time as the COST of all those activities too? On that basis the most costly thing most of us do is sleep since just about everyone spends more hours every day doing that than any other single activity. The actual VALUE assigned to time spent for each of these activities not only varies from person to person, but from activity to activity. Therefore the number of variables is nearly infinite, which makes including that "cost" in the reloading calculations virtually impossible. Personally I don't do that kind of numerical analysis on all of my day to day activities. Do you?

To an extent yes. I consistently attempt to determine what it "worth" doing and what is "worth" outsourcing. I make a lot of decisions based on economic impact and the impact on the time available to me. You are also sort of proving my point which is that there are so many variables to the "cost" of reloading that when people claim X savings it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It is not an objective fact it is not a universal rule it is a calculation based on tons of subjective variable factors. That in a nutshell is my point. LOL

Oh and thanks for a fun discussion!

 

[BC38]

Ok lets talk about that. Factory loaded ammo has value just ask all the people who hoarded and resold 22lr during the last shortage. You can sell it on forums, you can sell it at guns shows, your local shooting club etc... People will buy it if you price it with the market. It will hold its value a lot better than reloading components.

Once you purchase components and open the container of powder it becomes worthless to anyone but you. Would you buy powder in an open container at a gun show? I surely wouldn't. Primers in boxes ok they will hold value but you can only sell it locally because you can't ship it. Ever try to ship powder or primers as an individual? Brass is worth some $$$ but mainly as scrap metal. The actually bullets will be worth something but not what you paid for it.

Even worse once your have added your labor to the powder, brass, bullets & primer and actually made a round it becomes worthless to anyone but you. Again ever try to sell your reloads at a gun show? Ever buy some random guys reloads at a gun show? I would never try to sell my work product and certainly would not buy someone elses.

So if you were going to stockpile something that will hold its value and if there is a real shortage again has a real chance to go up in value loaded ammo is a much better bet. Not a good bet IMHO but certainly better than reloading components or reloaded ammo.

I'm not talking about resale. I don't load for resale any more than you buy your stockpile for resale. I load ammo to SHOOT. Your point wasn't about the value of the ammo - it was about who has what when there is a shortage.

The fact is that in a shortage situation, the value of once fired brass, bullets, and unopened cans of powder goes up by just as big a margin as loaded ammo - maybe even more. BTW, you do know that reloaders only open one can of a given powder at a time and usually keep multiple cans of their favorite powders on hand right?

Once fired brass has the same value as scrap metal? What universe are you living in? We aren't even in a major shortage situation and right now finding good once fired brass for less than a nickel a round in the cheapest of all calibers (9mm) is a bargain.

Bullets not worth what I paid for them? Wrong again - especially when there is a shortage. When shortages hit, the price of components goes up dramatically.

For example, since the start of the last shortage around 5 years ago the cost of powder DOUBLED and it didn't come back down much - even though we aren't even currently in a serious shortage. During a shortage my bullets will be worth more than what I paid for them, guaranteed. Better than money in the bank.

I have bought my stockpile on sale at good prices, and in a shortage situation I would be able to sell my components for at least as much of a markup as you could sell your ammo. The big difference is I can have the same size stockpile of total ammo as you have while tying up only 1/3 of the money - or I can build a 3 times larger stockpile for the same money - as what you can with your factory ammo.

Even if I stockpile only enough to make twice as much ammo, and therefore only tie up 2/3 as much money, we'll see who runs out first when an extended shortage hits. Note that I am saying WHEN not IF

 

[WVSig]

BC38 you are delusional about the value of your components. Sorry but I can't agree with you at all. The number of people who reload is significantly smaller than those who buy factory ammo. At the places I have shot over the last 15 years I would estimate it is somewhere in the range of 5 to 1 and that is being conservative.

Components did not and will not go up as much as factory loaded ammo in a shortage situation. There will be less buyers and therefore less inflation of prices. Supply and demand is the reason that prices of factory ammo and powder has not come back down. The shooting community panicked and paid the skyrocketing prices raising the ceiling that people were willing to pay. If people were willing to pay $30 for a 100 round box of 9mm why on earth would a business drop it back down to $11 like it was in 2000. The same goes for powder.

Your line of thinking is self fulfilling. It makes sense because it is circular. I am not going to convince you otherwise.

 

[BC38]

BC38 you are delusional about the value of your components. Sorry but I can't agree with you at all. The number of people who reload is significantly smaller than those who buy factory ammo. At the places I have shot over the last 15 years I would estimate it is somewhere in the range of 5 to 1 and that is being conservative.

Components did not and will not go up as much as factory loaded ammo in a shortage situation. There will be less buyers and therefore less inflation of prices. Supply and demand is the reason that prices of factory ammo and powder has not come back down. The shooting community panicked and paid the skyrocketing prices raising the ceiling that people were willing to pay. If people were willing to pay $30 for a 100 round box of 9mm why on earth would a business drop it back down to $11 like it was in 2000. The same goes for powder.

Your line of thinking is self fulfilling. It makes sense because it is circular. I am not going to convince you otherwise.

BTW, how much do you reload? How many components do you buy? How many reloading forums do you frequent? Enough to really know what you are talking about? I ask because so many of your statements about the cost of components don't seem to be based in reality. Want to see the actual value of components? Look on GunBroker. I do - all the time.

All I can say is we'll have to agree to disagree. But next shortage, we shall see who is right on this one. I guarantee if it lasts as long as two presidential terms, with my current stockpile of components, I'll still be loading and shooting all I want at 5 or 10 cents a round - long after you've sold or shot up all your factory ammo...

Keep your powder dry

 

[WVSig]

BTW, how much do you reload? How many components do you buy? How many reloading forums do you frequent? Enough to really know what you are talking about? I ask because so many of your statements about the cost of components don't seem to be based in reality.

All I can say is we'll have to agree to disagree. But next shortage, we shall see who is right on this one. I guarantee if it lasts as long as two presidential terms, I'll still be shooting all I want at 5 or 10 cents a round - using my large stockpile of components - long after you've sold or shot up all your factory ammo...

Keep your powder dry

I reload about 10,000 rounds a year of 9mm and the same in 45 ACP. I also do 38spl, .357 Mag and 380 auto in much smaller numbers. I have only been reloading for about 18 months. I also have about 20,000+ rounds of factory ammo in 223, 762, 9mm, 45 ACP, 380 etc.... I won't even count shotgun shells.

I currently have enough powder that I will not have to buy anything for 2 years. I have enough bullets to load for the same duration. Oddly enough I have about the same number of primers. LOL

I purchase on a regular when the prices are right and maintain a par based on how much I am shooting. I do this so I can dollar cost avg my cost. I used to do the same thing with factory loaded ammo and I survived the last shortage with no issues or ill effects. If you have 8 years worth of shooting components on hand that is awesome! I personally do not think that much is necessary but to each their own.

I don't frequent reloading sections of the forums I post on because I do not find them an enjoyable part of the forums. If I have a question I might ask it I join a conversation here and there but in general do not frequent them but that does not mean I do not understand how to buy components or their value.

I love it when someone cannot prove their point using logic they always go ad hominem. You cannot undermine my points so you go to the man. Happens every time.

 

[BC38]

I reload about 10,000 rounds a year of 9mm and the same in 45 ACP. I also do 38spl, .357 Mag and 380 auto in much smaller numbers. I have only been reloading for about 18 months. I also have about 20,000+ rounds of factory ammo in 223, 762, 9mm, 45 ACP, 380 etc.... I won't even count shotgun shells.

I currently have enough powder that I will not have to buy anything for 2 years. I have enough bullets to load for the same duration. Oddly enough I have about the same number of primers. LOL

I love it when someone cannot prove their point using logic they always go ad hominem. You cannot undermind my points so you go to the man. Happens every time.

Hey! Look at that! We have similar experience and reload for a lot of the same calibers!

Undermind? Wasn't that the villain in one of the recent Pixar films?

What does "go to the man" mean? That is a phrase I am unfamiliar with.

Nevermind, those were rhetorical questions. You're right man. About everything. I'm just a boob. Have a good day.

 

[joeintexas]

Let's see. I am retired. I make the exact amount of money whether I am reloading ammo or mowing the lawn or watching tv. It doesn't change so if my reloading time=loss of income then walking to the mailbox is costing me money. If I put a price on my time and it had to be income producing, then I would sure miss my afternoon naps. To make your argument equal saying reloading time is money then driving to the LGS and time spent there and driving back from buying ammo has to be considered time is money there too. Just the way I look at it, if I thought my time reloading wasn't worth more than watching the grass grow I would probably quit. Guess we all see things different and that's a good thing.

 

[BC38]

Let's see. I am retired. I make the exact amount of money whether I am reloading ammo or mowing the lawn or watching tv. It doesn't change so if my reloading time=loss of income then walking to the mailbox is costing me money. If I put a price on my time and it had to be income producing, then I would sure miss my afternoon naps. To make your argument equal saying reloading time is money then driving to the LGS and time spent there and driving back from buying ammo has to be considered time is money there too. Just the way I look at it, if I thought my time reloading wasn't worth more than watching the grass grow I would probably quit. Guess we all see things different and that's a good thing.

You're wasting your breath - or your valuable time. I've already made that argument 2 or 3 different ways.

There are some people who simply can't BE wrong or see anything from more than one perspective.

When they go jonesing for an argument, look out! The trouble is you can't tell them from anyone else until after they have sucked you in.

 

[WVSig]

Let's see. I am retired. I make the exact amount of money whether I am reloading ammo or mowing the lawn or watching tv. It doesn't change so if my reloading time=loss of income then walking to the mailbox is costing me money. If I put a price on my time and it had to be income producing, then I would sure miss my afternoon naps. To make your argument equal saying reloading time is money then driving to the LGS and time spent there and driving back from buying ammo has to be considered time is money there too. Just the way I look at it, if I thought my time reloading wasn't worth more than watching the grass grow I would probably quit. Guess we all see things different and that's a good thing.

I understand that and in your situation my analysis might not apply.

PS I do consider the time and gas it takes to get somewhere when comparing prices of goods. I will not drive 30 minutes to save $5.

 

[WVSig]

You're wasting your breath - or your valuable time. I've already made that argument 2 or 3 different ways.

There are some people who simply can't BE wrong or see anything from more than one perspective.

When they go jonesing for an argument, look out! The trouble is you can't tell them from anyone else until after they have sucked you in.

See there you go again. You can't help but lower the discussion to ad hominem attacks. If you read what I have posted I have stated that I understand fully that many people do not put a value on their time and that is valid for them but my point is that is far from universal. You have seem to have missed that.

 

[WVSig]

BTW, how much do you reload? How many components do you buy? How many reloading forums do you frequent? Enough to really know what you are talking about? I ask because so many of your statements about the cost of components don't seem to be based in reality. Want to see the actual value of components? Look on GunBroker. I do - all the time.

All I can say is we'll have to agree to disagree. But next shortage, we shall see who is right on this one. I guarantee if it lasts as long as two presidential terms, with my current stockpile of components, I'll still be loading and shooting all I want at 5 or 10 cents a round - long after you've sold or shot up all your factory ammo...

Keep your powder dry

In another thread you stated you had 3,000 rounds of various calibers loaded and enough components to load another 10,000.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/481242-building-ammo-reserve.html

How much do you shoot a year? By my math you shoot about 1,600 rounds a year if you have enough components to survive a 8 year drought. Did I do the math wrong?

Seems like you shoot regularly but not what I would call a high volume shooter. I probably shoot on avg about 1500 rounds a month give or take. It makes me wonder why you felt the need to question my knowledge and buying volume.

 

[BC38]

OK, here's a question for you WVSig (why I'm letting you suck me back into this I don't know, but...)
You insist on counting the time required as part of the "cost" of reloading.
You claim to do cost benefit analysis on everything in your life to determine what is worth the "cost" of your time to do yourself vs. what you hire out to others.
Yet you also claim to reload 10k rounds per year of 9mm - which is the round with absolutely THE least cost savings to reload. The round that would be the least worthwhile to reload in your cost benefit analysis.

And in the next breath you say I am making illogical arguments?

You admit that component costs have gone up due to supply and demand, but turn right around and assert that the components would be next to worthless even if there were a shortage.

Whose logic is faulty here?

 

[BC38]

In another thread you stated you had 3,000 rounds of various calibers loaded and enough components to load another 10,000.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/481242-building-ammo-reserve.html

How much do you shoot a year? By my math you shoot about 1,600 rounds a year if you have enough components to survive a 8 year drought. Did I do the math wrong?

Seems like you shoot regularly but not what I would call a high volume shooter. I probably shoot on avg about 1500 rounds a month give or take. It makes me wonder why you felt the need to question my knowledge and buying volume.

Who said I have enough to last through an 8 year drought? I never said that. I'm thinking you need to read that again.

I said if we had an 8 year drought with 3x as much in components to load as you could buy in factory ammo (for the same money), who would run out first?

As you have said so many times, we're talking in GENERAL terms here, not necessarily about one specific person's circumstances.

I questioned your buying volume to try to understand your statements about components being virtually worthless.

Like I said, you win. You peed higher up the wall than I did. Happy now?

I've already "spent" to much "costly" time on this conversation.

 

[WVSig]

You are not reading me correctly. You are misrepresenting what I have said.

OK, here's a question for you WVSig (why I'm letting you suck me back into this I don't know, but...)
You insist on counting the time required as part of the "cost" of reloading.
You claim to do cost benefit analysis on everything in your life to determine what is worth the "cost" of your time to do yourself vs. what you hire out to others.

I said that I do cost benefit analysis on a lot of things I do and many decisions are based on cost benefits. What you are missing is that I have not put a $$$ on my time. LOL

Yet you also claim to reload 10k rounds per year of 9mm - which is the round with absolutely THE least cost savings to reload. The round that would be the least worthwhile to reload in your cost benefit analysis.

You are 100% correct my analysis demonstrated to me that 9mm yielded the least cost savings per round. It cost me about $.10 to $.11 cents to load and I could buy it for $.22 assuming quality brass cased. I still reload it because I get more accurate more consistent ammo. I can tweak the rounds for a particular gun if I want to. I did not get into reloading to save money I got into reloading for more consistent ammo tailored to my needs. Something I could not get from factory. I did not get into it to save money. In the end I have determined that I spend about the same amount of money reloading that I did on factory ammo I am just shooting more and shooting better ammo. I am not saving money. LOL

You admit that component costs have gone up due to supply and demand, but turn right around and assert that the components would be next to worthless even if there were a shortage.

Whose logic is faulty here?

I never said they would be worthless. I said they would not appreciate at the same level as factory loaded ammo. I did state that once you take components and assemble them into a round the end product is worthless to other people because most people will not buy someone else's home rolled ammo.

I stated brass is worth the cost of scrap. I should have clarified that I am talking about common calibers which can be picked up at most ranges or from factory loaded ammo I shot years ago. Most people do not pay $$$ for common caliber brass in my experience.

Powder if opened is worthless and in my experience bullets and primers value does not go up as much as loaded ammo. Maybe you have seen something different.

If you are going to rebut my statements please properly present them instead of using a strawman argument. Unlike you I am enjoying the discussion. I like to explore other peoples points of view.

 

[WVSig]

Who said I have enough to last through an 8 year drought? I never said that. I'm thinking you need to read that again.

I said if we had an 8 year drought with 3x as much in components to load as you could buy in factory ammo (for the same money), who would run out first?

As you have said so many times, we're talking in GENERAL terms here, not necessarily about one specific person's circumstances.

I questioned your buying volume to try to understand your statements about components being virtually worthless.

Like I said, you win. You peed higher up the wall than I did. Happy now?

I've already "spent" to much "costly" time on this conversation.

Did I misunderstand this?

All I can say is we'll have to agree to disagree. But next shortage, we shall see who is right on this one. I guarantee if it lasts as long as two presidential terms, with my current stockpile of components, I'll still be loading and shooting all I want at 5 or 10 cents a round - long after you've sold or shot up all your factory ammo...

You state in the other thread you can load another 10,000 rounds.

You then state you have 3,000 on hand.

A presidential term is 4 years. 4 X 2=8

You stated above that 8 years from now you will still be shooting 5 and 10 cent ammo using your current stockpile.

I took the 3,000 rounds you said you had on hand added the other 10,000 you say you can build with your current stockpile and divided by 8.

Which part did I get wrong.

It sounds like you are done with the discussion. To bad it was fun I enjoyed the back and forth. It was worth doing even if it cost me some "opportunity costs" and maybe even some real $$$ because after all time=$$$.

 

[BC38]

Did I misunderstand this?



You state in the other thread you can load another 10,000 rounds.

A presidential term is 4 years. 4 X 2=8

You stated above that 8 years from now you will still be shooting 5 and 10 cent ammo using your current stockpile.

I took the 3,000 rounds you said you had on hand added the other 10,000 you say you can build with your current stockpile and divided by 8.

Which part did I get wrong.

What you got wrong was that I did not say I would still be shooting at the end of the long (8 year) drought, only that I would still be shooting long after the factory ammo (assuming the same investment in both) would run out. Read it again.

The other point of my statement was that until all my current stock of supplies are is exhausted, every round will still have cost only 5-10 cents - because that is what I have invested into the components (I've lucked into some stuff for REALLY good prices a couple of times over the last couple of years).

BTW, that 10,000 round figure is just a low estimate of what I currently have on hand for BULLETS. I probably have enough powder to load about 3-4 times that many and enough primers to load around 25k rounds.

Fortunately I know a couple of guys who cast, so if push came to shove, I could still get bullets. Which is why I haven't stocked up as heavily on them.

 

[WVSig]

What you got wrong was that I did not say I would still be shooting at the end of the long (8 year) drought, only that I would still be shooting long after the factory ammo (assuming the same investment in both) would run out. Read it again.

The other point if the statement was that until all my current stock of supplies are is exhausted, every round will still have cost only 5-10 cents - because that is what I have invested into the components (I've got some stuff for REALLY good prices over the last couple of years).

Ok I assume you shoot lead not FMJ or plated? Based on what I have in stock I would bet you will be wrong. If you only have enough to load 10,000 rounds I will be shooting my current stock long after you will be unless you shoot a really low volume not that it matters.