Two more .380s, two more fails

If I have missed this in your prior .380 ACP rants, I apologize. Every response herein deals with the responder's personal experience in shooting a .380 ACP pistol. What's your personal experience in firing a .380 ACP pistol? Everything in this thread is about other shooters and what you have observed in others . . .

Rastoff said:
I really would like to see a .380Auto, any .380Auto, function reliably. Alas, it hasn't happened yet. Since I've seen thousands of guns in action, it's likely that I have seen a .380 work OK. But, in the last 4 years or so, I've been paying attention and in that time I don't remember a single one working as it should for self-defense. I thought this class would be different since we now only shoot 12 rounds. Apparently it was not to be.
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Tough Slides

As I get older and now with arthritic thumb joints, I'm unable to both fully rack the slide and simultaneously engage the slide stop on a pair of Kahrs, similar in size to the many 380s available. I bring an empty magazine to the range with me. When I need to lock the slide open, I insert the empty magazine which I use to raise the slide stop. In this way, I don't have to break my grip to manually engage the slide stop.

My larger framed 9mms, both Glock and S&W, are not yet an issue for me.
 
Rastoff said:
It's a concealed carry license class. The course of fire is required by law. The class is only 4 hours long and we have to teach the law, gun safety and the students must perform the course of fire with each gun they want on their license. In this class we had 7 students and 21 guns.

Absolutely! As stated above, there just isn't time, I wish there was.

Most shooters don't seek training. 90% of the students I see wouldn't come if the law didn't require it. They've all been shooting for a long time and just don't need training because they already know how to shoot. Their targets disagree with their beliefs.

Y'all keep asking about what type of failures they were, does it matter? I mean, there was one shot followed by a problem. Failure to extract, eject, feed or whatever, are really all just failures to fire when needed. In this instance they were both failures to feed and one had multiple of those.

Both guns were Bersa Thunders.

The absolute most important aspect of a self-defense gun is functional reliability. I don't think that M29since14 meant that reliability wasn't important to him, just that he wasn't concerned about the reliability of the .380Auto because of his personal experience that his has been reliable. I believe him, but my experience has been different.

I really would like to see a .380Auto, any .380Auto, function reliably. Alas, it hasn't happened yet. Since I've seen thousands of guns in action, it's likely that I have seen a .380 work OK. But, in the last 4 years or so, I've been paying attention and in that time I don't remember a single one working as it should for self-defense. I thought this class would be different since we now only shoot 12 rounds. Apparently it was not to be.


For the record, the course of fire is new this year. Previously I was able to make my own course of fire and was able to provide some instruction. With the new requirement to shoot every gun on the license, there just isn't time.
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You bring up, indirectly, a subject that is far more important than whether or not a 380 can be reliable but also a subject that simply does not get discussed often enough.



Most shooters don't seek training. 90% of the students I see wouldn't come if the law didn't require it. They've all been shooting for a long time and just don't need training because they already know how to shoot. Their targets disagree with their beliefs.
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Carrying any handgun imposes a level of responsibility on the carrier which at a minimum should be the responsibility to learn how to handle the gun as well as what the laws are.


Y'all keep asking about what type of failures they were, does it matter?
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Yes, it matters. If the issue really exists then doesn't it really need to be addressed? If that user can't shoot that gun reliably and safely then should that user be licensed to carry that gun? If it is a matter of training, then should that need to be addressed? If it is a matter of design or manufacture of that firearm then does that need to be addressed? If there is insufficient time can't the person simply not be licensed until the issues are addressed?
 
new shooters, new guns, it's probable, still in the box when they got them out. Never fired a few hundred round to seat and wear all the parts in. No polishing of the feed ramps yet. Limp wrist shooting a small gun. No training for a firm grip and controlled trigger. Many guns, need a little range time to settle in. So do the shooters.

It's more likely that the people that gravitate towards the 380 as a first firearm for CC,are also the ones that have fails and would if they had a 9mm instead of the 380. {or a 45, or any auto loader}

Don't blame the round for all this.
 
Kahr says shoot 200 rounds.
That's what I was doing when mine failed to return to full battery with aluminum ammo.
Corrective action was to place big fat thumb over rear of slide and push.
Do you folks remember that old cold barrel theory for hunting rifles?
Target rifles are often fired to warm - foul the barrel before the competition.
But when you see that big bull on a frosty morn, you got one shot!
It's a cold barrel accurate shot, right here, right now or go just home!
Self protection handguns are pretty much the same.
They need to fire every time first shot and any follow up shots needed.
If they don't, you can still shoot them at the range.
But no way should you carry them for protection!
 
I have had a bunch that sucked, including 3 different PPKs. This little sucker has become my favorite "when I am in a suit" gun. Firestorm .380 by Bersa. This one has had 600 or so trouble-free rounds from various manufacturers through it. It is wonderful. I made the grips, but there are some decent ones out there.
 

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My dad got an RM380. It's had several hundred rounds through it thus far, and I don't think it's been cleaned at all.

Not a single hiccup.

I've also seen a shooter take a Bersa Thunder through a 100-round qualification without a single failure. I don't think she was terribly experienced, either, she just didn't suck at guns.
 
My wife shot her Bersa for the Texas handgun license qualification (50 rounds). No malfunctions, and she passed easily. We have a pair of them although neither of us carries the .380.

When I first bought them I thought they were junk. Lots of failures. It turned out not to be the guns but rather the case of Winchester white box ammo that I bought with them. Switching to other brands cleared up the malfunctions like magic. Aguila, Federal, Fiocchi, Lawman, PPU, Remington, Hornady Critical Defense, and MagTech all function well in them. The only other ammo I've seen issues with is S&B (and the Herters made by S&B).

That's just my experience with a sample size of two.

Just edited to add that the single action trigger on the Bersas is actually pretty darned good. Light, smooth, and crisp. The double action, although of course heavier, is pretty reasonable, too.
 
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That a good point. My view is that the .380s I've been around definitely do tend to be ammo sensitive. I always buy Remington FMJ ammo if I can get it. I like the idea of the flat-nosed Winchester round, but don't have the confidence in it that I do in the Remingtons. I'd rather have the flat-nose, but... :o

Some of the mini 9s are also said to be very ammo sensitive, like the Kimber Solo, for example. I can't prove it. Mine has been fine with anything I've given it.

I'd guess a great deal of the trouble the students have could be traced to (1) new guns that need a chance to "break in" and (2) that may do better with one brand of ammo than another, and (3) shooters who do not know how to hold the guns properly and consistently. It's a shame you can't spend more time with these folks. Four hours certainly is not much. As you say, it's not uncommon that a person who shot tin cans a few times with their Dad's .22 when they were a kid later in life thinks they pretty much know all they need to know about guns.
 
just a little food for thought. Many people decide to get their CC permit. They need a gun for the qualification for the class. They go to the store and buy an auto loader ,{it's the in thing} but have no experience but the 380 is likeable and the slide racks fairly easy. They never get the gun out and mess with it {maybe they look at it some}....waiting for the class...to learn. You have them fire 12 rounds from a gun that has never been shot hot and settled in. And on this you are basing your opinion on a particular caliber. Just food for thought.
 
I have the much reviled Beretta Pico, and it couldn't get through a single magazine of Federal Hydra Shok in 60 rounds--no exaggeration...not a single magazine. However, it hasn't had a failure in 120 rounds of Fiocchi Extrema (loaded with the Hornady 90 grain XTP). It also hasn't failed with any of the 200 rounds of various hardball rounds, Fiocchi, Remington green and white box, and WWB. I know that's not enough rounds to reach a definitive conclusion other than the thing just does not like Hydra Shok rounds. In both Federal's and Beretta's defense, though, the rounds in question were over 25 years old, and I was just using up the last of what I had. With other guns, I've never had a problem with ammo older than that before, but I felt I should mention it.

Contrary to much of the commentary, I find the gun itself to be very accurate at 7 yards, easily keeping all shots in a 5 inch circle, 3" if I really bear down and take my time (with the very usable sights probably contributing to that). And it's soft shooting. Strangely, I don't notice any difference in control between the flush magazine and the one with that awkward finger extension. I like it because it's a hammer-fired DOA pistol, desirable features for a deep concealment gun IMO. That said, I rarely carry it. I prefer a J-frame revolver if at all possible for minimalist carry.
 
I need to look into one of those .9mm pistols people keep mentioning. I bet they're easy to conceal! Would make a great backup to my 45mm Colt automatic. ;)
 
Collect call from reality, will you accept the charges... As more folk get their CCW (which is a birthright anyway) more manufacturers create more viable lighter weight options.

Law of physics .45 trumps, .38 trumps, .32 trumps, .22.

Sure, bullet makers and commercial ammo loaders, and firearm designers create more effective and or less recoil options... The knowledge gained lifts all boats, so to speak. Chiappa creates a .357 with less recoil, but the concept can be applied to .40, .327, .45 etc.

The only true question is... What are you willing to carry (and be proficient with) 24/7/365. Because a Phoenix .22 in the pocket trumps a Rowland at home in the safe.
 
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As to the terminal ballistic reliability of the .380 ACP round itself, it's better than a sharp stick. Off the top of my head, I can think of three high-profile uses of the .380 where it worked just fine: 1) George Zimmerman, .380 at contact distance. Result: 1 shot stop terminating in fatality. 2) Florida handicapped parking shooting, .380 at greater than two arms-length distance to high-chest center of mass. Result: 1 shot stop resulting in fatality. 3) Movie theater shooting of a cell phone user, .380 at greater than two arms-length distance to high-chest center of mass. Result: 1 shot stop terminating in fatality.

While in all of the above cases, the performance of the shooter could be called into question, the performance of the .380 round proved adequate in every incident. Is the .380 ACP my go-to self defense caliber? Not hardly. But for some people in some situations, it's a reasonable choice.
 
I was once, somewhat skeptical of the 380 ACP or 9mm Kurz....

I have a Colt 380 Mustang that with reasonable good ammo shoots every time.

I don't carry it for my personal defense, it's not that I don't like
the cartridge, it's just, I have experienced it's limitations.

I use it to train the grandsons
in the safe use of a semiautomatic pistol, before advancing to the 45 ACP.

IMG-1051.jpg



.
 
Sorry Rastoff, There have been a number of very reasonable explanations as to your student's problems listed. Personally, I lean toward operator error. However, I think that a blanket statement condemning every gun in a certain caliber is a bit too much.

I happen to like the .380 caliber and many of the guns chambered for it. I currently own six and have had others in the past. Like many others here, I've never had any problems with any of them.
I can and have carried most of them as my primary at one time or another. And I've never felt under gunned or inadequate with any of them.
One in particular, I carry a lot. I have a Colt Mustang XSP that is my daily exercise walk companion. Its the only polymer framed gun I own and it was bought specifically for this purpose. With its polymer frame and stainless slide, its about as sweat proof as a gun can get. Its small size and light weight make it easy to carry and conceal while exercising. To me, its perfect for this use.
Of course with it currently being winter, cold and often wet, these days I usually walk inside on my treadmill. however, from spring until fall, I usually carry this gun for a couple of hours almost every single day weather permitting. I have complete confidence in it.
I like .380s. :D
 
Rastoff,

Many people have reported reliability issues with 1911s, including a number of instructors who mention 1911s often don't make it through their courses without some kind of malfunction.

Does that mean all 1911s are unreliable? Will you stop carrying a 1911 because of that?

Just something to think about.
 
Everything fails at some point, it becomes a matter of degrees. A pistol is a poor SD weapon to start with imo, so handicapping myself further by carrying a mousegun in my pocket, just not my choice.
 
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sig_230 said:
Yes, it matters. If the issue really exists then doesn't it really need to be addressed? If that user can't shoot that gun reliably and safely then should that user be licensed to carry that gun? If it is a matter of training, then should that need to be addressed? If it is a matter of design or manufacture of that firearm then does that need to be addressed?
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I agree, the issues should be addressed, but the failures all result in the same thing, no shot. That's the main issue.

sig_230 said:
If there is insufficient time can't the person simply not be licensed until the issues are addressed?
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The second amendment disagrees with this. This is a topic for a different thread so, I'll leave this here for now.

ContinentalOp said:
Rastoff,

Many people have reported reliability issues with 1911s, including a number of instructors who mention 1911s often don't make it through their courses without some kind of malfunction.

Does that mean all 1911s are unreliable? Will you stop carrying a 1911 because of that?
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Excellent question my friend. I'm surprised no one brought it up earlier. It goes exceptionally well with the question about me having personally fired a .380Auto; yes, I've fired a number of them. The .380s I remember firing:
Bersa Thunder
Ruger LCP
Llama (like a 1911, but smaller)
Sig P238

It's possible I've fired others, but I don't remember it. Out of this list, the Llama and Bersa failed. Both had failures to feed. I don't remember the other two failing in the 20-50 rounds I fired through them. So my personal experience is marginally better than my observations of others.

You mentioned the 1911. I too had reservations about the 1911 several years ago. Through some discussions with friends, I finally bought my own 1911. Sure enough, I had an issue with it that couldn't be fixed. This was verified by two other experienced shooters. I returned that gun and got a different one. Now I personally have thousands of rounds through 1911s in every condition a normal person could be expected to be in and mine have functioned without malfunction. I've witnessed others work well and some fail at different times.

There have been many that suggest the problems I've witnessed have been shooter induced. You could be right. However, why is it that these same shooters have malfunctions with the .380Auto, but none with a 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP?

Let me be perfectly clear, I've seen every type/model/caliber of handgun fail. Yes, I've even seen a revolver fail. It happens. In the same class I mentioned in the OP, I saw two Glocks, a Sig and a S&W 5903 malfunction. Malfunctions happen, that's life. What makes me question the .380Auto is not that I've seen a few fail, but that I've seen so many of them fail in so many different hands. Not just at my classes, but at the range, while out plinking and at other classes. I admit that I'm one person and while I see a lot of guns, it's still a small sample in the grand scheme of things.

Rustyt1953 said:
If the .380 is so anemic and the pistols chambered for it are unreliable then why haven't manufacturers and gun owners abandoned them en masse?
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Some things are inexplicable, but I have a guess. The .380 is easy to rack so lots buy it just for that. The round itself is not anemic or incapable of effective defense. Shot placement trumps all. Even the venerable .22LR can be a decent defensive round. My Ruger Mark II and III work like clockwork.

Reliability is a funny thing. People spend a lot for a gun and they are unlikely to just discard it because of a few malfunctions. Most of the people I talk to don't see 2 malfunctions per 75 rounds as an issue. Many in this thread have said, "Mine has been 100% perfect except for a couple malfunctions under X circumstance." Well then it's not 100% is it?

Hey, if you guys are having great success with your .380s, more power to ya. If your guns are performing to your satisfaction, far be it from me to tell you different. I'm just not seeing it myself. The Sig P238 seems to be a nice gun. I want to buy one just to prove my own observations wrong, but they're a little pricey.
 
Rastoff said:
yes, I've fired a number of them. The .380s I remember firing:
Bersa Thunder
Ruger LCP
Llama (like a 1911, but smaller)
Sig P238

It's possible I've fired others, but I don't remember it. Out of this list, the Llama and Bersa failed. Both had failures to feed. I don't remember the other two failing in the 20-50 rounds I fired through them. So my personal experience is marginally better than my observations of others.
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So you've fired at most 200 rounds total through two marginal .380 ACP handguns, one above marginal .380 ACP handgun, and one pretty good .380 ACP handgun, had a couple FTF failures, and you're condemning an entire line of self defense handguns?

Duly noted . . .
 
squidsix said:
I have had a bunch that sucked, including 3 different PPKs. This little sucker has become my favorite "when I am in a suit" gun. Firestorm .380 by Bersa. This one has had 600 or so trouble-free rounds from various manufacturers through it. It is wonderful. I made the grips, but there are some decent ones out there.
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Yet i think a g26 or shield is about the same size with significantly better ballistics??? Just sayin.
 
Truckin said:
Critical Defense, I wonder if FMJ round would be better.
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That explains it as the High Tec Critical Defense ammo throttled back once the deer was no longer an imminent threat. :eek: :D


While 115gr XTPs are accurate most often I have their 115gr FMJ loaded with BE or N320.
Will be trying Penn's 120gr TCBB Premium Cast instead of the regular 100gr TCBB PC which like the XTPs ....are very accurate in all our guns.
 
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Rastoff said:
Yes, if you choose to ignore the rest of the observations.
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Well, to take your "observation" argument in a slightly different but still parallel direction, having observed multiple Boy Scouts in Wilderness Survival training classes fail at starting a fire with only two matches allotted, I have come to the conclusion that fires cannot reliably be started with two matches or less . . .
 
My take:

380's are small. Tolerances are smaller. They are cheap. Some fail out of the box, some don't due to these tolerances. Trade in and keep looking until you find a good one.

That being said I have a P3AT that I have had since 2006. I was hesitant to buy but did due to price and that thing is reliable. I run around 50 rounds through it once a year after the initial 500 rounds. It has been solid. I am lucky. I will never get rid of it. It is in my pocket every moment I am awake at home. I have other firearms I carry out of the house.
 
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