What is this in the 1902-1905 taxonomy?

[SouthNarc]

This M&P Hand Ejector was advertised as a 1902 but after doing some reading here I'm not sure exactly what I have? Round butt with gorgeous Circassian Walnut gold medallion stocks. Curiously the crown of the barrel is highly polished. Was that something the factory did? It looks like it spent its life in a drawer. Serial number is #44986

 

[SouthNarc]

The stocks are really nice.

 

[gmborkovic]

Those stocks did not ship with that gun!

 

[SouthNarc]

Those stocks did not ship with that gun!

No? What would be proper for this old timer?

 

[gmborkovic]

Not the ones on it, The design of checking is to fine and there is frame flat visible around the stocks. Simple problem to solve, Pull the grips and examine the backs. Any Sn. stamped or penciled on the grip?

 

[SouthNarc]

Not the ones on it, The design of checking is to fine and there is frame flat visible around the stocks. Simple problem to solve, Pull the grips and examine the backs. Any Sn. stamped or penciled on the grip?

I pulled them already and checked hard with a flashlight and didn't see any serial numbers.

 

[JP@AK]

This M&P Hand Ejector was advertised as a 1902 but after doing some reading here I'm not sure exactly what I have?
Serial number is #44986

Your revolver likely shipped in 1903 or 1904. It definitely would have been cataloged as a Model of 1902.

As gmborkovic stated, the stocks are much newer than the gun. The recessed gold medallion wasn't used until c. 1910-11. That said, you didn't get hurt. The Circassian walnut is beautiful.

In the era of your gun's production, the stock circle would have been flat or slightly concave and without a medallion.

Added:
These are square butt, but they illustrate the style that would have shipped on your revolver.

Alternatively, they could have been made of black hard rubber, like these:

 

[glowe]

If there is no screw ahead of the trigger guard, you have a 1902. The 1899 and 1902 revolvers were 4 screw guns, all with round butts. The stocks have been re-checkered and finished by someone recently. Original stocks were satin finish, plus they were only available in the 1910s with gold medallions. Grips from 1899 into 1910 were what is called concave walnut service stocks, meaning the top round was sunken as shown on one of my guns, serial number 53681 that shipped in April 1905.

 

[SouthNarc]

If there is no screw ahead of the trigger guard, you have a 1902. The 1899 and 1902 revolvers were 4 screw guns, all with round butts. The stocks have been re-checkered and finished by someone recently. Original stocks were satin finish, plus they were only available in the 1910s with gold medallions. Grips from 1899 into 1910 were what is called concave walnut service stocks, meaning the top round was sunken as shown on one of my guns, serial number 53681 that shipped in April 1905.

Thank you Gary I appreciate that. No screw in front of the trigger guard.

 

[SouthNarc]

So it's a 1902 that shipped sometime probably in 1903/1904?

The grips sure are nice even if they aren't the ones it shipped with.

Really curious about this polished crown. It's super distinct and conspicuous.

 

[glowe]

The muzzle of S&W revolvers set on some sort of pegs during the bluing process and would not blue properly so the factory simply polished the end of the barrels and left them in-the-white. The factory case colored the extractor rod knob then polished the beveled end and left it unblued as well.

 

[SouthNarc]

The muzzle of S&W revolvers set on some sort of pegs during the bluing process and would not blue properly so the factory simply polished the end of the barrels and left them in-the-white. The factory case colored the extractor rod knob then polished the beveled end and left it unblued as well.

Ahh okay.

Thank you sir. That's the first time I've seen it and I have several other pre war guns that I haven't noticed it on. It's super cool learning about these old guns.

 

[DCWilson]

In a classification system from several decades ago, this was called a Model of 1902, First Change. I have 43786, a four-incher which shipped in May 1904. Your very nice six-inch specimen probably shipped about the same time, give or take a couple of months. S&W had no policy that required them to ship from the vault in serial number order.

The first change guns differ from the first 1902s in that they have a larger diameter barrel shank. This leads to the existence of a slight swell to the barrel where it meets the frame, as you see on your revolver. The predecessor versions had straight, no-shoulder barrels where they met the frame.

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, yours might have a 6 1/2" barrel, which would be even cooler.

 

[SouthNarc]

In a classification system from several decades ago, this was called a Model of 1902, First Change. I have 43786, a four-incher which shipped in May 1904. Your very nice six-inch specimen probably shipped about the same time, give or take a couple of months. S&W had no policy that required them to ship from the vault in serial number order.

The first change guns differ from the first 1902s in that they have a larger diameter barrel shank. This leads to the existence of a slight swell to the barrel where it meets the frame, as you see on your revolver. The predecessor versions had straight, no-shoulder barrels where they met the frame.

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, yours might have a 6 1/2" barrel, which would be even cooler.

David thank you so much for that very helpful information.

Curiousity got the best of me and I measured the barrel. Really good eye sir as it's 6 1/2". Is that an uncommon length in a 1902?

 

[SouthNarc]

Your revolver likely shipped in 1903 or 1904. It definitely would have been cataloged as a Model of 1902.

As gmborkovic stated, the stocks are much newer than the gun. The recessed gold medallion wasn't used until c. 1910-11. That said, you didn't get hurt. The Circassian walnut is beautiful.

In the era of your gun's production, the stock circle would have been flat or slightly concave and without a medallion.

Added:
These are square butt, but they illustrate the style that would have shipped on your revolver.

Alternatively, they could have been made of black hard rubber, like these:

Jack thank you I appreciate that info.

 

[DCWilson]

Craig, the early hand ejectors came in a variety of barrel lengths. Production changed with perceived demand. The K-frames (.38 and .32/20) were made in 4", 5", 6" and 6 1/2" versions. The longest one fell out of production before WWI, as I recall. The larger N-frame revolvers (.38, .44 and .45) were mostly manufactured with 6 1/2" barrels until after WWII, but some four and five inch barrels were available. (The Model 1917 came with a standard 5 1/2" barrel per military specification.)

 

[SouthNarc]

Craig, the early hand ejectors came in a variety of barrel lengths. Production changed with perceived demand. The K-frames (.38 and .32/20) were made in 4", 5", 6" and 6 1/2" versions. The longest one fell out of production before WWI, as I recall. The larger N-frame revolvers (.38, .44 and .45) were mostly manufactured with 6 1/2" barrels until after WWII, but some four and five inch barrels were available. (The Model 1917 came with a standard 5 1/2" barrel per military specification.)

Thank you sir.

 

[rct269]

The BIG difference in your gun and the 1905 version is the action, most particularly the trigger control/return aspects (which I refer to as the "monkey motion" system). The Model of 1905 relies on the rebound slide and interior coil spring to do the job---that in contrast to the great, huge trigger leaf spring pinned to the front strap, and connected to the trigger by two "monkey motion" levers to be found before---but it works fine.

What doesn't work fine will be your efforts to disassemble it for its welcome bath, should you be so inclined to do so. Needless to say, I was so inclined to do so with each and every gun that came to live here. These brought me to a screeching halt---even with Chicoine's Antiques book. It was my good fortune to remember our own Mike Priwer has forgotten more than most folks know about these things, and I called for help straightaway!! He gave me the particulars of a special tool he'd invented which makes the task one of those proverbial pieces of cake. Let me know if/when you are in need.

Speaking of Mike Priwer, it is he who espouses these 1902's with square butts are, in fact, Models Of 1905---never mind the action; because that's what the factory called them back in the day----not much opportunity to argue about THAT!!

My best/only story about these things is the beginning and end of their life with me. It started at an SWCA Annual Meeting a looooooong time ago---Dallas maybe. Here are two of these things in the gun room---both targets---both quite spiffy---and neither like anything I already had---and I bought both of them. Here's where things start to get pretty weird. I paid something around $600-$800---for THE PAIR! Time passed, and the time came to liquidate my collection so as to leave behind a pile of money rather than a pile of guns. I called David Carroll, and said "Come get this stuff, and dump it!" He did, and he did----took a while, but he did a FINE job! I have yet to understand the whys and wherefores, other than perhaps the folks who sold them to me didn't know any more than I did at the time; but there came to be a GREAT DISCREPANCY between my purchase price and the selling price---$600-$800 for the pair to me, $2750 AND $2265 from me!! That's quite an appreciation in not more than 25 years or so!!

Go figure!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Collector terminology dictates that the introduction of the Model 1905 started at #62450 and that all round and square butt revolvers after that number are to be considered Model 1905. The company, on the other hand, continued to use the Model 1902 and 1905 until around 1911. They then changed the name to Military & Police and added either round or square butt. It makes sense that the change in name was done to eliminate the year which suggests that the company maybe thought the year moniker dated their guns.

Now one would think everything is jumbled enough, now adding to the confusion, but there were square butt revolvers made before the 62450 change. Actually, the square butt revolver started at 58,000 when as many as half those "Model 1902" revolvers had square butts. Here are a couple examples of this period of production 61192 and 61196. Both 4 screw with the flat trigger springs.

There is merit to either side of the quandary in that the collector convention is based on engineering changes and not configuration. The problem is that the butt shape could be argued to be an engineering change. The company ignored the mechanical changes made to the guns and changed model names by the shape of the butt. The 1905 catalog appears to show 4 screw revolvers, one with square butt, and called it a Model 1905, and the round butt a Model 1902.

 

[boykinlp]

The stocks are really nice.

Well Craig, I am very sorry that you have to even look at those grips for even one second more! Since I hate that you have to do that, I would be more than willing to take those junkers off your hands for an extremely generous $100!

To me , those are SPECTACULAR!
Larry