When Bullets Fail

federali

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A perennial Internet topic that refuses to go away is the search for the perfect bullet, capable of that all-important one-shot-stop. The search is further refined by gun type. For example, a bullet leaving a 5” Model 1911 will hit harder and have different penetration and expansion characteristics than when the same bullet is fired through a three-inch barrel. Prior to the 1960s, bullets for use in semi-autos were full metal jacket, or “ball” while ammunition loaded for revolvers were loaded with soft lead projectiles, mostly round-nose.

Here are three actual shootings that seemingly defy the odds. Owney Madden, (1891-1965) was an Irish street tough on New York’s West Side. I’m not trying to denigrate those of Irish ancestry. The fact is, if you were involved in organized crime and the rackets in the early to middle part of the twentieth century, you were probably Irish, Italian or Jewish. As such, Owney enjoyed the gangster’s lifestyle where lots of money could be made but stepping on the wrong toes usually meant a death sentence.

Owney became involved with a woman named Freda Horner. Problem is, she belonged to Little Patsy Doyle, a member of the rival Hudson Dusters. On November 6, 1912, outside a dance hall on 52nd Street in New York’s Hell’s Kitchen, three gunmen, associated with Doyle, ambushed Owney Madden with the handguns and ammunition of the era and riddled him with bullets. Owney was shot eleven times across his chest, shoulders and groin.

The gunmen fled, leaving Owney for dead but he was rushed to the hospital where doctors managed to save his life. They removed five bullets but six more remained in his body, which he carried until his death from natural causes in 1965.

Fast forward to Chicago on February 14, 1929. After years of open street warfare between the South Side Italian gang under the command of Alphonse Capone and the North Side Irish gang controlled by George “Bugs” Moran, Capone struck what he hoped would be a fatal blow to the North Side Gang at their garage, S.M.C Cartage, located at 2122 N. Clarke Street, forever known as the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre.

As luck or fate would have it, Moran was running late and a spotter misidentified one of Moran’s men as Moran himself. The trap was sprung and seven members of the North Side Gang were put against a wall and executed. The gunmen used two Thompson sub-machineguns, handguns and shotguns from a range of perhaps fifteen feet.

One of the seven victims was a guy named Frank Gusenberg. Investigators say that the killers fired a total of seventy bullets and depending on which account your read, Gusenberg caught anywhere from eight to as many as eleven of those rounds in his back, including .45 ball. When police arrived, the found Gusenberg clinging to life. However, he died of his wounds the following day.

There’s also that shooting in Cook County Illinois where a meth-head was still standing after absorbing thirty-three 9mm bullets. Rifled slugs ended that situation.

With modern or contemporary bullets, these shootings would have probably had different outcomes. Yet, I know of at least two shootings in which the victims fell stone dead from a single .25 ACP ball round. Despite what the prop department supplies to actors in mob-related movies, the weapon of choice for mob hits is the .22 rimfire. Years ago, the parents of a member of my band were involved in a long-running domestic battle. The so-called marriage boiled over and the wife pulled out a recently obtained .25 Auto and shot her husband six times in the face across the kitchen table. Each of those bullets deflected off his skull to lodge between skin and skull. He survived the shooting with relatively minor injuries.

Having the most effective ammunition available is an important part of the equation but as any police firearms instructor will tell you, the elements of surviving a shooting incident, in order of importance, are: mindset, judgment, tactics, marksmanship and firearm. A hit with a .38 Spl is more effective than fifteen misses from a 9mm. Survival does not begin and end with the gun or its ammunition. It is but one member of a “five-man team” that determines who leaves the crime scene under a sheet. Food for thought.
 
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boiled over and the wife pulled out a recently obtained .25 Auto and shot her husband six times in the face across the kitchen table. Each of those bullets deflected off his skull to lodge between skin and skull. He survived the shooting with relatively minor injuries.

A chap I worked with was shot in the face with a .25 ACP and suffered no serious injuries. The round never penetrated bone.
 
boiled over and the wife pulled out a recently obtained .25 Auto and shot her husband six times in the face across the kitchen table. Each of those bullets deflected off his skull to lodge between skin and skull. He survived the shooting with relatively minor injuries.

A chap I worked with was shot in the face with a .25 ACP and suffered no serious injuries. The round never penetrated bone.
When asked his opinion of the .25 ACP, Jeff Cooper responded:
"I'd rather be armed with a hatchet."
 
"One shot stop" is totally irrelevant.

No one with any training or a lick of common sense is going to shoot an assailant once, and then stop and wait to assess the results.

Instead, anyone with any training or common sense is going to keep shooting until the assailant goes down, or until the slide locks back, which ever comes first.

It might make a bit more sense to discuss bullet performance in terms of a failure to stop drill. Are you gonna shoot him twice center of mass and then transition to a head shot? Or are you going you shoot him a couple more times center mass before considering a head shot if he won't go down?

Either way you're not going to stop with just one or two shots, unless he's obviously going down.
 
I think people are just afraid. That's why they argue about "the best" gun, the "most effective" ammunition, and so on. They want to believe in magic bullets or techniques, and they desperately want to justify their decisions.

Some things are beyond your control. Hey--I might have a little aneurysm or brain tumor as we speak. Doesn't mean I'm going to go get an MRI tomorrow.
 
Nothing is 100% guaranteed. NOTHING! People have survived every full size rifle cartridge, survived 50BMG, one man survived a shot to the face with an exploding bullet. One man even survived TWO atomic bombs. Nothing is 100%

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
In WWII John Rigby III was shot in the head by a German sniper using 8x57 Mauser. The bullet entered his helmet at the center front and did 1 1/2 complete circuits around and exited center rear. Except for entry and exit it stayed between the liner and the steel shell.

When the Rigby Co. resumed ammo production after the war for their 275 Rigby round (a hot loaded 7x57 Mauser) they went from 140 grain spritzer bullets to 154 grain semi-spritzer bullets. They decided that better penetration was more important than 400 yard flat trajectory.

By the way Company president, John Rigby III, lived the rest of his normal and natural life with a visible dent in his forehead!

Ivan
 
I think Paul Kearsey found the closest thing to a "one-shot stop bullet" in the movie Death Wish 3... The Wildey .475

When asked is that a .44 Magnum, he replied - "No, .44 magnum is a pistols cartridge, this is a shortened version of the African Big Game cartridge". :eek:

Can't imagine anyone - even the mythical 350 pound druggie wanting to continue the fight (if able) after being hit by one of those! ;):)
 

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My only goal is to cause my assailant to decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment . . .

..also known as "behavior modification". As one of my firearms instructors once said..."a firearm is the ultimate behavior modification tool". Whether you just point it or have to pull the trigger someones behavior is going to be modified...death is just a byproduct of behavior modification.

Bob
 
Nicely said Federali. Especially like the historical illustrations to make the very valid point.
beer.gif
 
There's also that recent case (working from memory) in Illinois, a Sgt. Grimmins, who engaged in a roadside firefight with a bank robber. I believe Grimmins fired over 30 rounds from his Glock 21, hitting the suspect some 11 times, 7 of which were torso hits, with .45 acp hollowpoints. It wasn't until he put three rounds into the face/head that the shooting stopped. The suspect still had vitals at the ER. Grimmins was on his final magazine, with just a few rounds left, when he ended the gunfight. I believe the officer now carries a Glock 17, with two 33 round sticks in addition to his two spare 17 round mags.

There's also that case (working from memory) where a state trooper shot a fat man 4 times in the torso with his .357 magnum loaded with winchester silvertips. After absorbing 4 .357 magnum hollowpoints, the fat man shot the officer once underneath the arm with his .22 mini revolver, killing the officer.

There is no magic bullet, and fights are unpredictable. Picking a good handgun, with proven ammunition, puts us many times more prepared than 90 percent of everyone else who doesn't even carry a gun.
 
In Ferguson, MO, officer Darren Wilson fired at Michael Brown 13 times, hitting him 7, with his .40 SIG 229, leaving one round in the chamber (13+1). In his testimony, Wilson recalled he remembered to look at the front sight for the last two rounds, and only the last one counted.

Why does mindset come first in the list? That was one of Jeff Cooper's thoughts. You must be determined to survive, even if wounded. Once that is settled, the rest comes easier - aim, shoot, repeat, until the threat ends.

I hope I never get to that situation, but if I do that it works for me.
 
I had a teacher in grade school who absolutely worshipped President Andrew Jackson. Say something even mildly disparaging about "Ol' Hickory" within earshot of that teacher and your days were numbered. Anyway, one day in class she talked about how physically tough Jackson was, and that he had survived numerous duels throughout his lifetime. She mentioned that at one point, Jackson carried a bullet (lead ball) in his body for many years as a result of a duel (surgeons apparently couldn't remove due to its location in his body). One day, the ball was expelled by Jackson (he probably coughed it up), and he had the ball gift wrapped and tried to return it to his opponent. Said opponent graciously returned the "gift" to Jackson due to his long and close affiliation with it. Guys had class back then - even the tough ones.

Regards,

Dave
 
There's some new video released of a failed bank robbery in Rockford IL, that was fatal to the perpetrator.

There are three HD camera angles that give a surreal overview of normal people's lives and the terrifying violence that instantly appears.

Too graphic for here, but it's 5:21 long and published on YouTube by "Video Leak Police" under the title "♦Full♦ Bank Security Guard Involved in Robber Fatal Shooting Is Justified".

Interesting case study of surprised peoples reactions.
 
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My only goal is to cause my assailant to decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment . . .

My view exactly. If he runs away leaking, that's fine with me. Should make him easier for the police to track.

If he runs away without my having to shoot him, that's better still. Unlikely, but preferable.
 
My view exactly. If he runs away leaking, that's fine with me. Should make him easier for the police to track.

If he runs away without my having to shoot him, that's better still. Unlikely, but preferable.

The vast majority of DGUs (defensive gun uses) in the US *do not* involve a shot being fired. This according to The National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard survey for criminology statistics. John Lott estimates that the percentage of DGUs that involve zero shots fired is in the mid to high 90 percents. In other words, *if* you ever have to use a gun in self defense, there's around a 2-5 percent chance you'll have to actually drop the hammer.

Those are the empirical numbers on the issue.
 
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