Which 9mm load duplicates the performance of .40 S&W/.45 ACP?

[rwsmith]

The FBI analyses all kinds of ballistic criteria.....

...but the most important one is getting good hits on critical areas. And they expect a pistol to do the job of a carbine or rifle so they bounce back and forth between pistol calibers worrying about terminal ballistics and which pistol caliber performs like a long gun with a good sight system.

Criminals don't stand there like a standard target, they take cover. And to stop them you need to be able to pick shots and put them right where they count. Not in arms and legs.

 

[Rule3]

All the FBI testing cares about is penetration/expansion in ballistic gel going through layers of denim.
Pass or fail
Doesn't matter what caliber it is.
As with the Military, its all a cost, weight analysis. Get more shots with 9mm can carry more ammo, cost less

556 vs 30-06 or 308

Shoot the caliber that you shoot best
Watch this video, and maybe it will clear things up

One of the best videos on bullet testing

Papa Bear, Mama Bear, Baby Bear

38 special, to small
357 to violent not enough rounds

9mm to wimpy
10mm to violent
45 acp to big, not enough rounds

40 SW to snappy


Back to 9mm

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

That being said, you seem to have misunderstood me. I'm not looking to caliber up because I'm worried about Winter clothing preventing expansion or somehow functioning as a bulletproof vest, I'm just looking to caliber up because my Winter attire makes it easy to conceal larger, more powerful firearms, so I figure that if I can easily carry something more powerful, then why not do so?
However, if there is any truth whatsoever to the assertion that 9mm Luger can be equal in effectiveness/performance compared to larger diameter bullets, then obviously it wouldn't be worth the expense to "upgrade" to a cartridge which offers nothing yet has heavier recoil and more ammo capacity.

Ah, I did misunderstand you on that point.

Why not carry a bigger gun in a bigger caliber?
Because you can carry a bigger gun in the same caliber.

It really is impossible to say anything without it being a "caliber war" type statement. So...
The 9mm is NOT EQUAL to the .40 or .45. The 9mm is a BETTER PERFORMER because the slight loss in terminal damage potential is significantly outweighed by its other advantages (recoil, magazine capacity, training cost, etc.)

 

[Grayfox]

Bigger holes are better.

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

Bigger holes are better.

This reminds me of vegetarians trying to make a veggie burger or vegetarian bacon. You will never quite get it to the original.

I wouldnt try to make my 380 into a 9.
I wouldnt try to make my 9 into a 40.
I wouldnt try to make my.. oh hell you understand.

 

[JJEH]

I think people get too hung up on what the FBI does and says...

Pick the gun/caliber that you shoot best, but quality ammo and go practice as much as possible. I love 9mm and with Buffalo Bore ammo I never feel underguned. And should I need anything bigger I reach for my .30-30

 

[amd6547]

I'm glad to see the rest of the universe has caught up with me, by going to the 9mm...
After all, I've been carrying it since before there was a 10mm, or even a 40.
However, I couldn't resist the cheap police surplus 40's, and bought a like new G22 Gen4, complete with night sights, for a very cheap price.
I find the recoil of 40s&w negligible, and I feel pretty well armed with 15 180gn HST's at 1000fps.

 

[Mister X]

It’s funny that when people claim the 9mm equal to the .40 and .45, they never seem to mention the .357 SIG.

Why? The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate the stopping power of the legendary, devastating 125 grain .357 magnum hollow point. Regarded as the most effective anti-personnel handgun round in human history, New adopters of the semi-auto pistol pined for the same effectiveness.

The .357 SIG delivered.

Bottom line, it is THE single best manstopper and Law Enforcement cartridge available. Buy one and never look back. Forget about 9mm, 40, and 45.

"Compared to a 9mm, the .357 Sig has a decreased magazine capacity, more recoil, as well as greater muzzle blast and flash, yet at best it offers no gain in bullet penetration and expansion characteristics. What is the point of this cartridge?”

- Dr.Gary Roberts(DocGKR)/

 

[Nevada Ed]

In the 40's the 38 Super was King of the hill until the 357 came out.

Yes, the little 9mm is a nice weapon but.........
most like a little 3" barrel for less weight for all day carry.....
but we all know the 5" or longer barrel will get maximum fps & energy from a SD loading.

A 5" 9, 40 or 45 cal. pistol can start out at 33 ounces unloaded
and go up to three pounds ......
which is hard to keep in place when moving at more than a walk.

Get er done.

 

[THEmodelof1989]

If we are going to have a winter caliber discussion, we would be remiss to not invite .44 magnum to the party huh?

Performance wise, .44 magnum is a clear cut above all the calibers mentioned thus far. Yes, N frames are huge, but you are wearing a winter coat right?

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Now you know why I care little for the FBI specs or ammo made to them...
If the ammo is made to the same spec the performance will be similar
not their best.....
The main problem with the spec is where the damage is...
Look at the wound ,, the most damage is deep ,like a HUNTING round
aka "a killing wound"
Whereas for defense We need a "stoping wound"
You kill a person by bleeding out [ but this takes some time]
You stop a person with PAIN!!!!!!
Pain is caused by damage to the nerves.
The most nerves are in the skin and the muscle with next to none
in fat ,organs or bone...[ where the FBI spec puts it's damage]
The 357mag 125gr sjhp works so well because it makes its damage where you need it.
The hp deforms as soon as it hits [1400fps] and with in an inch or so
blows the nose off [ like a Nosler] doing much damage, then the base [about 100gr wc] drives on in.
This [or a larger flatnose bullet] causes Pain AKA the "shock" or
"slap" as Keith said .
The reaction to the hit.
No matter how many times you shoot some one they will only bleed out so fast. [ at least 8 to 10 sec till they pass out-- a long time in a fight]
BUT pain can cause someone to "give up" [No Mas] stop what they are doing, or pass out [pain over load]
Just remember , HP's need about 1000 fps to deform and get bigger
the more fps the faster it happens [aka 357 mag]
but the larger round will never get smaller.
And although the physical difference in size of bullets looks small,
the effect on the nerves [the more nerves you hit the more pain]
can be much greater.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

The main problem with the spec is where the damage is...
Look at the wound ,, the most damage is deep ,like a HUNTING round
aka "a killing wound"
Whereas for defense We need a "stoping wound"
You kill a person by bleeding out [ but this takes some time]
You stop a person with PAIN!!!!!!

Pain compliance is unreliable and is the realm of OC and batons and the like, not firearms.

Actually stopping someone involves rendering them incapable of forming the intent to continue their actions or incapable of acting on that intent. Loadings that do well in IWBA or FBI testing are good at creating "stopping wounds."


Out of curiosity, if you are going to use a firearm as a pain compliance weapon then what anatomical structures do you target? The intestinal tract? The kidneys? The glutes? The genitals?

 

[Protected One]

I carry Federal 147gr HST standard pressure year-round in my carry gun, a Beretta PX4 Compact (3.27" barrel, FYI) and my home defense gun, a Beretta 92FS. Where I currently live, the winters typically don't get super cold, but high temps can get below freezing at times and bundling up is common. From what I've read, LE agencies that use the same load in areas that get pretty cold, including St. Louis and an agency in Minnesota (I can't remember which agency, but I want to say Minneapolis or Rochester), are satisfied with it's performance.

Then there's the Speer 124gr GDHP +P used by NYPD that's gotten good results, and it can get quite cold there. I'd say this is probably a good choice for someone who wants a little more energy for penetrating heavy winter clothing, but doesn't want too much recoil. I've only shot this in my PX4 Compact, but the recoil was not an issue.

I can't remember what load Chicago uses, but I want to say it's a 147gr load. I could be wrong, though.

My general philosophy still holds, in that I prefer bullets that are medium-to-heavy weight for caliber, so I'd be satisfied with just about any modern JHP 9mm load in the 124-147gr range, standard pressure or +P.

Also, I wouldn't say the 9mm is "equal" to .40 or .45, but I would say that based on actual shootings, any advantage the bigger calibers have over 9mm are so small as to be insignificant. For that reason, I would agree that all the service calibers perform about the same. So pick the one you like. A good, modern JHP that's reliable in your gun and that you can shoot well should perform as designed/desired, regardless of caliber.

Just my opinion.

This. I carry Federal HST 150gr Micro in my Shield 9mm because I prefer the heavy for caliber round. For civilian purposes it is shown to be adequate for the task as it will stop the threat - assuming good shot placement, just as well as .40S&W or .45 ACP

 

[Protected One]

Groo here
Whereas for defense We need a "stoping wound"
You kill a person by bleeding out [ but this takes some time]
You stop a person with PAIN!!!!!!

You MAY stop a person with "pain" (a psychological stop), but the only sure way to stop them is through instantaneous incapacitation. A round delivered to the brain pan or sever/damage the spinal column or brain stem will do it.

 

[Erocksmash]

Since Winter has been getting increasingly cold in my region each year, I've been looking into "calibering up" as some folks call it for the season with a new pistol chambered in either .40 S&W or .45 ACP, but it seems everywhere I go and anywhere the subject is raised, there's always at least a few folks arguing that there's no reason to carry a .40 or a .45 over a 9mm because they're equally effective.

This sentiment has become increasingly common over the years ever since the FBI switched from .40 to 9mm after reaching the same conclusion through testing.
However, as far as I know, the FBI has never divulged what specific 9mm load(s) equate to which load(s) in .40/.45, nor does anybody who repeats the sentiment ever seem to specify.

I've seen too many ammo tests performed on a wide array of media and read too many reports to take a blanket statement like 9mm being equal to .40/.45 at face value.
A standard pressure 115gr 9mm doesn't perform the same as a 230gr .45 ACP for example, ergo there must be a specific 9mm load which closes the gap, or otherwise some 9mm load which equates to another specific load in .40 S&W and .45 ACP, but what load is it?

Honestly, if I can carry a 9mm load that can go toe-to-toe with a .40 or a .45, then obviously I'd love to know what it is because it could save me a lot of money, but I'm skeptical that such a load even exists, so could someone more knowledgeable enlighten me to the specifications of this illusive 9mm Luger load which replicates the performance of larger caliber cartridges?

The first up and 5 following in the stack are underwoods +p+ 90grn followed by Underwoods +p+ extreme penetrators including all back up mags...

Why may you ask? The 90grn is fast but look at testing and you get a huge energy dump without over penetration, which is why they are followed with the penetrators.

Both bullets are barrier blind and will not clogg due to windshield/clothing...

I dropped all my .40cal guns and have one left set to go for sale... what's the point after discovering my holy grail 10mm cartrage... just my 2cents

 

[Echo40]

Trust me, if Smith & Wesson ever makes a 10mm M&P Shield, then I'll be all over that, but seeing as they've held off for this long despite the resurgence of the 10mm Auto Cartridge in recent years, I strongly doubt that they're going to offer even a full-size M&P in 10mm, let alone a 10mm Shield in a world in which the average person finds any recoil greater than 9mm to be so painful that they can't bear to train with it.

Besides, even if S&W did put out an M&P10mm, I imagine that it would initially be manufactured in limited quantities to test the market, which in turn would lead to shortages and inflated prices, ergo I'd end up waiting to buy one even in the unlikely event that S&W suddenly announces an M&P10mm Shield at SHOT Show 2020.

So yeah, for the time being, I'll settle for .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

If the previous statement hasn't already made it abundantly clear, I've already received adequate replies to this thread and thus have decided to stick with my original plan to go with a larger caliber cartridge rather than fiddle with overpressure 9mm loads in attempt to duplicate the energy/performance of more powerful cartridges.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
The target is first the skin, next muscle the base will punch holes in the
organs for bleeding.
As few hits go into the brain or spine we are left with the vast majority of stops due to bleeding [ drop in blood pressure causing fainting] which happens in no less than 8 to ten seconds [zero blood pressure to brain]
to several minutes like the FBI shootout in Florida....
or to the person giving up...
This can be willful as in "I give up" , "That hurts", or "I have been shot!!!"
Or un-willful , pain or input overload...
And yes , some people are less effected by pain than others, most woman take pain better than most men, people on drugs don't feel pain like others[ but the body DOES register the damage but the mind
doesn"t] and it doesn't mater how much damage you do sometimes , as in the prick on the finger
drops some , to a hit from a 50BMG has no effect.
Person faint from pain of injection or to battlefield repair,"If the pain is too much you will just pass out"
I will agree that the "pain stop " is not measurable like a wound channel
but it is often the thing that "stops" the action.
See how many people get shot and fall down right then , but make full recoveries,,, they don"t bleed out that fast, and you don't often recover
from a CNS hit, so something else is involved...

 

[KSDeputy]

I have carried a .45 pistol, since we changed from .357 revolvers to the model 645. We replaced that with a model 4506 shortly before I retired 22 years ago. I have carried a CS 45 since we changed to .45, and I still carry it. I have learned a great deal from reading this post, and I thank everyone who made a comment.

 

[mrchuck]

We were trained to ALWAYS Double Tap,,,, And if possible to Triple Tap.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMHO unless you are in law enforcement the FBI protocol means very little.

This continued obsession with excessive velocities is not healthy and should stop.

I see no reason to surpass SAAMI limits because doing so beats up your gun and you. Sorry, I just don't get it.