Why Not Have A Safety On An M+P ?

[kbm6893]

You can't fix stupid. I believe that it should be mandatory that people should get training to own a firearm, especially if they have never owned/fired a gun before. I know that goes against the 2A. But it was written in times when every household had firearms and taught children to respect them. That hasn't been the case for decades, and that was my situation growing up. When I bought my first gun, I did not fire it until I had someone to mentor me, and eventually a well known instructor, high up in the industry took me under his wing, taught me a great deal. I continue to take classes through his company. Unbelievable how many guys who have hunted all of their lives get a handgun and don't know how to properly handle it .. hold a semi auto wrong, how they stand incorrectly .. accidents waiting.

I agree totally. i find it incredible that others will fight against basic training before owning a gun. if they don't want to make it a "government fee", make the check out to the NRA and get some training before you pick up a deadly weapon. i still like a safety on my own guns, but i would feel better about others not having them if i knew they were minimally trained. Judging by some of the mental midgets i see at the shooting range (last week, a guy was shooting up computer hard drives), there are MANY unsafe shooters out there.

 

[HK-N-THE-HOUSE]

By the way... I don't think that the auto accident analogy is a very good one since many accidents are caused by the other guy and are beyond ones control.

Hmmm... now that I think about it maybe manual safeties on your guns is a good idea since I have no control over how you all handle them. ; )

WOW , the name DICK in your case could not be more appropriate.

 

[kris7047th]

I agree totally. i find it incredible that others will fight against basic training before owning a gun. if they don't want to make it a "government fee", make the check out to the NRA and get some training before you pick up a deadly weapon. i still like a safety on my own guns, but i would feel better about others not having them if i knew they were minimally trained. Judging by some of the mental midgets i see at the shooting range (last week, a guy was shooting up computer hard drives), there are MANY unsafe shooters out there.

Safeties on guns won't fix that issue. Relying on safeties can cause injury as any man made product can fail. Rely on your brain to keep you safe. You can only be responsible for yourself, not others.

 

[kbm6893]

Safeties on guns won't fix that issue. Relying on safeties can cause injury as any man made product can fail. Rely on your brain to keep you safe. You can only be responsible for yourself, not others.

Can't agree with you there. People are not perfect, and we all make mistakes. Even the best make mistakes. Safeties lessen those. How many lives have been lost due to a safety? Now how many saved? The "my safety is between my ears" comments are ridiculous.

 

[Maddmax]

You can't fix stupid. I believe that it should be mandatory that people should get training to own a firearm, especially if they have never owned/fired a gun before. I know that goes against the 2A. But it was written in times when every household had firearms and taught children to respect them. That hasn't been the case for decades, and that was my situation growing up. When I bought my first gun, I did not fire it until I had someone to mentor me, and eventually a well known instructor, high up in the industry took me under his wing, taught me a great deal. I continue to take classes through his company. Unbelievable how many guys who have hunted all of their lives get a handgun and don't know how to properly handle it .. hold a semi auto wrong, how they stand incorrectly .. accidents waiting.

I have to agree. People that have never owned a firearm should get basic training before they can buy one. I grew up around firearms and was taught safety (as in, consider EVERY firearm is loaded until proven other wise and still treat it as if it were loaded, period), along with respect for them. Way back when I was going to High School (I grew up in the midwest), we had a shooting club and were taught gun safety along with all the shooting basics. Same for being in the Boy Scouts and shooting at summer camp. My family hunted and ALWAYS stressed safety, know your background before you took a shot,etc. You "played" by the rules or you didn't get to carry, let alone shoot a weapon.

What gets me right now. You can take a class and get a Carry Permit and not even own a handgun or have to qualify shooting it (in Iowa). Way back when I got mine, it was an all day advanced coarse and you had to shoot AT LEAST a 70% at 25 yards. I was an NRA shooting instructor for rifle,shotgun and pistol in years gone by. One of my best friends is an instructor. So between the two of us, we have taught new carry permit holders from the basics up about handgun saftey and shooting. My eyes roll back when I hear, "I got my permit, what should I get for a handgun ?" At least they are smart enough to ask, listen and learn. They get a nice long lecture on safety and we use all our different handguns to get them going. Then, it's their choise for what they buy and then we have them back to make sure they are up to snuff on what they have and can handle it properly and safely.

 

[kris7047th]

I have to agree. People that have never owned a firearm should get basic training before they can buy one. I grew up around firearms and was taught safety (as in, consider EVERY firearm is loaded until proven other wise and still treat it as if it were loaded, period), along with respect for them. Way back when I was going to High School (I grew up in the midwest), we had a shooting club and were taught gun safety along with all the shooting basics. Same for being in the Boy Scouts and shooting at summer camp. My family hunted and ALWAYS stressed safety, know your background before you took a shot,etc. You "played" by the rules or you didn't get to carry, let alone shoot a weapon.

What gets me right now. You can take a class and get a Carry Permit and not even own a handgun or have to qualify shooting it (in Iowa). Way back when I got mine, it was an all day advanced coarse and you had to shoot AT LEAST a 70% at 25 yards. I was an NRA shooting instructor for rifle,shotgun and pistol in years gone by. One of my best friends is an instructor. So between the two of us, we have taught new carry permit holders from the basics up about handgun saftey and shooting. My eyes roll back when I hear, "I got my permit, what should I get for a handgun ?" At least they are smart enough to ask, listen and learn. They get a nice long lecture on safety and we use all our different handguns to get them going. Then, it's their choise for what they buy and then we have them back to make sure they are up to snuff on what they have and can handle it properly and safely.

Even so the numbers .. statistics don't lie. VEEERRY few shootings deaths, accidental & otherwise have occurred with CPL holders compared to thugs, BG's .. those who don''t have carry permits. There is hope.

 

[Deadeye Dick]

WOW , the name DICK in your case could not be more appropriate.

Ouch, that hurt. My comment was meant as a joke... see the little winking smiley at the end of my comment?

 

[Deadeye Dick]

"Lackadaisical" has nothing to do with it.

An owner of a Glock once suffered a negligent discharge.Here's the rub:He ejected the mag, racked the slide, and nothing came out. Racking the slide again for safety purposes, nothing came out and he was satisfied all was well and depressed the trigger for field strip.

Why did he get a BANG that time? Because his extractor failed, and wasn't grabbing the chambered round when the slide was manually cycled.

He followed the "rules". He followed the steps. Gun still went bang when he didn't want it to.

In a world where 100% firearm safety can be established, then we can rely on our own wits. We don't live in a world where 100% of anything can be assured, except that Murphy's Law is 100% going to show up uninvited. Should Mr. Murphy pay me a visit, a manual safety is one more means of insuring his visit isn't a painful one.

How would a manual safety have made any difference? A Glock cannot be disassembled until the sear has dropped, you can not drop the sear without pulling the trigger. As someone else pointed out the owner failed to visually or physically check the chamber with his finger before pulling the trigger. The fact that the extractor failed just proves the point that mechanical parts can fail and should not be completely trusted to protect you. If my carry weapons do not have mechanical safeties I will not be tempted to rely on them and will instead rely on my own wits and proper training techniques.

 

[snowman.45]

Many years ago, when I carried Gen. 3 S&W guns (4506, 4516, 3913), I taught my officers that they had the option to carry the pistol with the safety engaged or not. I taught the advantages and disadvantages of both. Most generally felt secure in carrying them with the safety off. So, if someone has an M&P with a safety, I don't see that as much of an issue. They still have the choice to use it or not. I order my M&P's without a safety because my department issues Glocks and I have trained others with them since the 80's. I'm perfectly comfortable without a manual safety, but that should be a matter of personal preference.

 

[625-10scc]

Finger on the frame safe on inside the triger guard safe off. Rules of engagement are different for law enforcement , once the weapon leaves the retention holster the finger is the safe
The now common double and triple retention holsters are plenty complex with out addtional fine motor skills

 

[bp231986]

I have 5 M&P's and only one ( My 9 Shield), has the manual safety. I have a Commander and a High Stand with safeties. I prefer and carry the M&P's with-out them. It's called Finger Discipline AND using the proper holsters. My finger NEVER goes on the trigger until I'm ready to fire.

Agree!! Its really not that hard at all.

 

[jdh]

Next you guys are going to want people to be trained and have a license before they can buy a car.

 

[kbm6893]

Next you guys are going to want people to be trained and have a license before they can buy a car.

Perish the thought! They can buy one if they want, but I'd prefer they know how to drive it before they get behind the wheel!

 

[Lost Lake]

The "my safety is between my ears" comments are ridiculous.

The real safety IS between your ears.

If you have a safety and choose to use it, that choice is between your ears.
Always treat a gun like it's loaded! That's between your ears.
Never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy. That's between your ears.
Never depend on a safety. That's between your ears.
Verify a gun is unloaded before disassembly. That's between your ears.

What we are saying is safeties can be great tools, but they DO NOT assure there will not be an accident. Many times they can be blamed for accidents such as the guy saying "I thought the safety was on" as his buddy lies there bleeding.

Was the accident the fault of the safety? No. Because the real safety is between your ears.

 

[kbm6893]

The real safety IS between your ears.

If you have a safety and choose to use it, that choice is between your ears.
Always treat a gun like it's loaded! That's between your ears.
Never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy. That's between your ears.
Never depend on a safety. That's between your ears.
Verify a gun is unloaded before disassembly. That's between your ears.

What we are saying is safeties can be great tools, but they DO NOT assure there will not be an accident. Many times they can be blamed for accidents such as the guy saying "I thought the safety was on" as his buddy lies there bleeding.

Was the accident the fault of the safety? No. Because the real safety is between your ears.

Safeties don't insure there won't be an accident. They just lessen the possibility. People make mistakes.

 

[Lost Lake]

Safeties don't insure there won't be an accident. They just lessen the possibility. People make mistakes.

We definitely agree on your first and third sentences! The second I have no idea about. From my own experience I have seen far too many people believe that because a safety is on, the gun is harmless and they can pretty much do whatever they would like with it, such as stuff it in a pocket or purse, point it towards others, leave it lie around loaded, I even saw one guy look down the barrel! I just about had a heart attack! His response when I screamed at him? Don't worry the safety is on....

Safeties can fail so always treat a gun as if it is loaded and ready to go off. And that puts the real safety back in your mind again.

But I know exactly what you mean and I have thought it would be nice to have a safety on a gun while I'm fiddling with it trying to get it into an IWB holster. My solution is to undo my belt, drop trau and properly place the gun in the holster. Not something I can do in a shopping mall, but then again I wouldn't have my gun out in a shopping mall.

 

[EXERCISINGTHE2ND]

Ok - so my ADD kicked in and could read the whole thread. I just got my CCW and purchased a 40c that has been on my hip every chance I get. It hasn't gone off - I don't have a safety, so why aren't there holes in my couch, floor, toilet, Jeep, etc. When not on me, it is put away secured and the gun has not fired itself. So is there something I'm missing and/or didn't read in the manual or find when investigating the weapon about random unexplained firings?

I grew up in assembly plants and the saying was "you can't idiot proof anything." Idiots will figure out how to shot themselves with a safety, trigger lock, while locked in a safe. How you ask? I have no idea, but idiots figure it out and no legislation or mandate can prevent it.

So those of you that have it and like a safety - is it that you have an uncontrollable finger or you leave the weapon unattended around untrained adults and children? If not that, then what other situations would a safety be of benefit?

Ok - Ok I now feel better. Thx

 

[kbm6893]

Ok - so my ADD kicked in and could read the whole thread. I just got my CCW and purchased a 40c that has been on my hip every chance I get. It hasn't gone off - I don't have a safety, so why aren't there holes in my couch, floor, toilet, Jeep, etc. When not on me, it is put away secured and the gun has not fired itself. So is there something I'm missing and/or didn't read in the manual or find when investigating the weapon about random unexplained firings?

I grew up in assembly plants and the saying was "you can't idiot proof anything." Idiots will figure out how to shot themselves with a safety, trigger lock, while locked in a safe. How you ask? I have no idea, but idiots figure it out and no legislation or mandate can prevent it.

So those of you that have it and like a safety - is it that you have an uncontrollable finger or you leave the weapon unattended around untrained adults and children? If not that, then what other situations would a safety be of benefit?

Ok - Ok I now feel better. Thx

Nobody is saying a gun with a safety is 100% certain not to allow a ND. Only a fool would think that a gun with a safety is not LESS likley to have an ND. You've been carrying a gun for a short while and you think you have the experience to pass judgement? Some people on this forum have been carrying a gun for 50 years. That's like a kid who got his license 2 months ago bragging that he's never had an accident. Experienced, professional shooters have had ND's. You think you can't, or won't? Over-confidence breeds complacently, and that gets people hurt or killed. If anything, purchasing a gun with a safety forces the operator to actually TRAIN with their weapon. You know, PRACTICE? My new carry gun is a Ruger LC9. Has a down to fire safety. I was used to up to fire since I carried 3rd gen S&W's. I would still find myself sweeping up to fire, so I emptied the gun, holstered, and drew and flick down to fire 100 times a day. Took me less than a week to get it down. Now I don't even think about it. Grab butt, unholster, and on the draw, sweep down to unsafe. The LC9 even has the magazine disconnect (the horrors!). Love that too. And I've been carrying for over 20 years.

 

[kris7047th]

Safeties don't insure there won't be an accident. They just lessen the possibility. People make mistakes.

Rely on your brain instead for that. It is just as important to use the best possible gear for safety as well, which is why I wear an Ares Gear Ranger belt, Raven holster that has a lifetime guarantee. Too many $pend on a great gun but cut corners on their equipment.

 

[mlhumphrey]

There is nothing more dangerous than a safety. Not only does it encourage poor discipline, you lose respect for the one thing that will make your pistol shoot : pulling the trigger.

BULL****...