kris7047th
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Apples and oranges comparison with AR's and rifles.
Why Not Have A Safety On An M+P ?
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Apples and oranges comparison with AR's and rifles.
kris7047th
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Not arrogance .. confidence with proper training and practice, and faith with proper equipment. I don't go to *local indoor ranges* I am not responsible for what others do .. just myself, and I do not want someone else mandating safties on my guns because you and others think it should be that way. You do what you want. You feel unsafe at your range, then go somewhere else.
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I think it is up to an individual to choose to have a safety unless mandated by your Dept. If I were to carry a pistol today on duty, I would want a safety but I think it should be a choice. I carry a revolver now, most of the time concealed; a different situation entirely.
kbm6893
Member
I'm confident when I drive, but I still wear my seatbelt and I'm glad I have an airbag, and it'd not just for the other drivers. I'd wear my seatbelt if I was the only driver on he road. And every range I have ever been to has unsafe shooters at it.
kris7047th
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It should be a choice, and not dictated by anyone, nor the government.
BTW .. those airbags have gone off when they should not have and caused bodily injury. That happened to a former manager of mine some years ago. She sustained more injuries than her car sustained damage in a simple fender bender. Maybe you are being a bit too paranoid ?
jdh
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Another apples/oranges argument. You can be the only one on the road and a very safe/competent driver. Being a mechanical device things to break on automobiles which can, through no fault of the operator, cause the vehicle to leave the roadway and crash possibly causing fatal injuries to an unrestrained driver.
On a side note, LEOs and Soldiers are a subset of the general population. Yes, there are members of both occupations that have no business handling deadly weapons (Been an instructor of both groups). They are in the minority BUT are the ones that garner the most attention especially in the press when something goes wrong. You seldom hear reports on the news of soldiers/LEOs doing their job properly.
Ok with this I'm done.
I have noticed two firearm related topics of late which cause the participants on both sides to display extreme closed mindedness and an almost religious fanaticism. The 41/44 mag debate and the debate on the necessity of safeties on modern striker fired semi automatic handguns. In light of this I have decided to just go straight to the creationism versus evolution discussions and let you fanatics on both sides these two issues have at it.
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You misunderstand what we are saying.
Having a safety DOES NOT guarantee you will not have an accident! And sometimes safeties can cause a person to ignore the most basic gun safety rules. A lot of people have been shot by someone who said "I thought the safety was on". Safety or not, you shouldn't be pointing the gun at someone!
The only way to truly be safe is to follow safe gun handling techniques and that is done by the person holding the gun.
Deadeye Dick
Member
IMO a safety can give one a false sence of security. "I don't have to watch were I point my muzzle, it has a safety." "I can practice my fast draw in front of the mirror with a loaded gun, it has a safety." "It's okay to just rest my finger on the trigger, it has a safety." " I can carry my gun in my pocket with my car keys, it has a safety." "I can just toss my gun in my glove box/sock drawer/purse, it has a safety."
Treat every gun as if it were loaded, always. Never rely on mechanical safeties.
It's not that I think safeties are bad, I just do not put my faith in them and do not advocate that others do either.
There are no accidents. There are either mechanical failures or failures in judgement.
Treat every gun as if it were loaded, always. Never rely on mechanical safeties.
It's not that I think safeties are bad, I just do not put my faith in them and do not advocate that others do either.
There are no accidents. There are either mechanical failures or failures in judgement.
kbm6893
Member
Professional shooters have "faluires in judgement" and let rounds go when they shouldn't. If it can happen to them it can happen to anybody. A safety is not a license to act like an unsafe idiot, but it is an extra layer of security that can save a life. There are very few cases of a safety causing a death or injury, and many cases of them saving lives. If you train to disengage on the draw, the safety is a non-issue that only comes with benefits. Some people can't be bothered with that, though. Those are the ones who scare me.
kbm6893
Member
Never said it guarentees you won't have an accident. Just saying it greatly lessens the chance. If you pull the trigger because you think it's safe because the safety is on, you're a moron who should not carry a weapon. You can't deny that there ARE accidental discharges, and MANY of them could be prevented with a manual safety. Look at the Glock. You have to pull the trigger to disassemble it! Stupid.
jdh
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If I sweep the safety off during the draw then the only time it has any protective value is while the pistol is in the holster with a safety strap between the hammer and firing pin and with the trigger covered. While it is in my hand, since I deactivated the safety during the draw, how is the safety doing anything at all to to prevent the pistol from unintentionally firing?
Bottom line is: how many accidental/unintentional discharges have there been with the M&P? I think very few.
Poor trigger discipline can occur with any handgun. A striker fired semi auto is not much different that a "cocked and locked" hammer fired gun once the gun has been drawn and readied for use. Trigger discipline, and the training that provides it, is what is important. Using a safety requires a whole other set of training habits to disengage in stressful situations and then to remember to re-engage before holstering. Either way, safety or no, training and habit are critical to safe and effective use. I am not law enforcement, but I see the safety, especially in a striker fired gun like the M&P, as one more thing to have to deal with in the process of deploying a deadly weapon.
Poor trigger discipline can occur with any handgun. A striker fired semi auto is not much different that a "cocked and locked" hammer fired gun once the gun has been drawn and readied for use. Trigger discipline, and the training that provides it, is what is important. Using a safety requires a whole other set of training habits to disengage in stressful situations and then to remember to re-engage before holstering. Either way, safety or no, training and habit are critical to safe and effective use. I am not law enforcement, but I see the safety, especially in a striker fired gun like the M&P, as one more thing to have to deal with in the process of deploying a deadly weapon.
I hope I'm not confusing, but my position is the same even if this sounds like I'm switching teams...
I don't think a safety gets in the way if you know your gun. I have trained with my long guns that all have safeties and my handguns that have them and flicking off the safety is instant and actually not even a conscious effort. And returning the safety to 'safe' is also immediate and unconscious. I keep thinking about my trap gun and how I operate it. I never think about taking off the safety or putting it on, it just happens automatically.
I believe if my carry gun had a safety it would also be automatic off and on.
Again my point is you can't depend on a safety, always treat guns as if they are loaded and never point them at anything you don't intend to destroy.
I think Deadeye Dick has some good scenarios where a safety lulls a person into believing a gun is 'safe' but the practice is not. We often hear of shootings where the shooter thought the safety was on....
I don't think a safety gets in the way if you know your gun. I have trained with my long guns that all have safeties and my handguns that have them and flicking off the safety is instant and actually not even a conscious effort. And returning the safety to 'safe' is also immediate and unconscious. I keep thinking about my trap gun and how I operate it. I never think about taking off the safety or putting it on, it just happens automatically.
I believe if my carry gun had a safety it would also be automatic off and on.
Again my point is you can't depend on a safety, always treat guns as if they are loaded and never point them at anything you don't intend to destroy.
I think Deadeye Dick has some good scenarios where a safety lulls a person into believing a gun is 'safe' but the practice is not. We often hear of shootings where the shooter thought the safety was on....
kbm6893
Member
Because it is then only ready to fire if you want it to, and not when you are holstering and unholstering, and if someone gets a hold of it (which does happen), it's one less thing that can go wrong if they either accidentally pull the trigger, or if a bad guy tries to use it against you. And on striker fired, they're even more desirable, since you do not have the hammer to let you know an ND is about to happen. When I was on the NYPD, we had 3 guns to choose from. Glock 19, SIG 226, S&W 5906. Not ONE ND with the Sig or S&W. Every one of them with the Glock. Same training for all, but different results.
Houdini1953
Member
Sure you can have a manual safety on your gun if it makes you feel better but with or without a manual safety the gun can not shoot unless you pull a cantilever trigger that will allow the striker in the pistol to go forward and hit the primer.
Being a striker fired weapon like the Glock the M&P has no hammer to fall and then hit a firing pin and a thumb safety only block the action of a hammer from striking a firing pin even if you do not pull a trigger.
In other design even the revolvers can go off by being dropped, but not a striker fired weapon the reason is there is no hammer that can make the striker hit the center-fire cartridge and go boom!
An M&P is safe even without a thumb safety because it is not what COULD CAUSE the weapon from going off by dropping it is safe only if you do not pull the special cantilever trigger which is usually an intentional act with the outcome expected to be a large boom and recoil from the weapon!
Being a striker fired weapon like the Glock the M&P has no hammer to fall and then hit a firing pin and a thumb safety only block the action of a hammer from striking a firing pin even if you do not pull a trigger.
In other design even the revolvers can go off by being dropped, but not a striker fired weapon the reason is there is no hammer that can make the striker hit the center-fire cartridge and go boom!
An M&P is safe even without a thumb safety because it is not what COULD CAUSE the weapon from going off by dropping it is safe only if you do not pull the special cantilever trigger which is usually an intentional act with the outcome expected to be a large boom and recoil from the weapon!
EXERCISINGTHE2ND
Member
Extremely well stated!
Silversmok3
Member
Wrong.
The Air Force has a term:"Foreign Object Debris".
Yes I realize all of us are tactical marvels who can check our garments before reholstering. Just note that on a safety-less light trigger firearm one string, piece of debris, or random contact with another object can be enough force to engage the trigger. Before you type a response, can you say with 100% certainty that no foreign object will ever come in contact with the trigger?
Yes , it may be a 1 in a million chance. But the bullet doesn't care how it got fired. It won't know that the super aware tactical ninja owner made a mistake, so it should abort its path towards the head of a 5 year old girl in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This is the crux of the purpose of a safety. Indeed it increases the margin of error, so that a lapse in concentration results in a safety lesson instead of a dead man. It may be a very remote possibility that our firearms will suffer a negligent discharge. I still take steps to avoid it, because I am not willing to live with a dead bystander's life on my conscience because I felt like being a tactical super ninja.
EXERCISINGTHE2ND
Member
With the absolute fear that is expressed - I'm surprised most of you can even look at a weapon in a magazine without feeling like a accidental discharge is possible.
Probability of death by firearm yearly 1 in 354,776
Probability of death by steps yearly 1 in 210,640
http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_odds.htm
You'd better pad your stairs, put on a safety harness, & clip in on each rung. Make sure you practice this technique several times a month and don't use anyone else's steps
I know, I am totally off topic and outta bounds.
Probability of death by firearm yearly 1 in 354,776
Probability of death by steps yearly 1 in 210,640
http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_odds.htm
You'd better pad your stairs, put on a safety harness, & clip in on each rung. Make sure you practice this technique several times a month and don't use anyone else's steps
I know, I am totally off topic and outta bounds.
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Silversmok3
Member
With the absolute fear that is expressed - I'm surprised most of you can even look at a weapon in a magazine without feeling like a accidental discharge is possible.
Probability of death by firearm yearly 1 in 354,776
Probability of death by steps yearly 1 in 210,640
Odds of Death Due to Injury in the US
You'd better pad your stairs, put on a safety harness, & clip in on each rung. Make sure you practice this technique several times a month and don't use anyone else's steps
I know, I am totally off topic and outta bounds.
Fall down the stairs and the only one who's in pain is the user.Try telling a greiving family about that stat when its their kid who gets shot because a weapon owner had a brain fart.
The ultimate reason I carry a weapon is to protect life, in the form of protecting my own and the lives of non-combatants in the area.It only is reasonable for me to ensure I do not needlessly endanger others in the course of carry.
kbm6893
Member
With the absolute fear that is expressed - I'm surprised most of you can even look at a weapon in a magazine without feeling like a accidental discharge is possible.
Probability of death by firearm yearly 1 in 354,776
Probability of death by steps yearly 1 in 210,640
Odds of Death Due to Injury in the US
You'd better pad your stairs, put on a safety harness, & clip in on each rung. Make sure you practice this technique several times a month and don't use anyone else's steps
I know, I am totally off topic and outta bounds.
Let's try your little numbers game another way: the odds of using your firearm in a real life or death scenario are probably 1 in a million. And don't try the "there are over 1 million cases a year where a firearm is displayed to stop a crime". There is no corroboration to that at all. As a retired cop I have never pulled my gun. As a working cop, never other than while on duty. Neither have any of my friends or colleagues. And the odds of you having a brain fart during routine handling are much better You're gonna put the added risk of a ND because of that 1 in a million chance.
And not everyone owns or carries a gun. We all take the stairs. And I hope we excercise a BIT more caution while handling a gun than when walking down the stairs
Statistically, riding a motorcyle is more dangerous than skydiving. Would you rather ride your Harley to the 7-11 or jump out of a plane?
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EXERCISINGTHE2ND
Member
Really - that's the best argument you can come up with? Go read "The Tyranny of Cliches". So same arguement:
Tell that to the grieving family who" child was killed by:
(1) Motor vehicle (MVA)37.5%
(2) Poisoning 19.5%
(3) Falls 16.3%
(4) Drowning 3.0%
(5) Fires, Burns,Smoke 2.6%
(6) Medical/Surgical Complication 2.2%
(7) Forces of nature 1.8%
(8) Firearms discharge 0.7%
CAUSES OF DEATH
And a person may go to jail for any careless - reckless - negligent action. Accidents happen with/without safeties, training, prevention, child-proof caps, swim lessons, etc. Its our individual responsibility to understand "when much is given, much is expected." We are more likely to kill someone in a car accident (we practice daily) than have an accidental discharge that results in death. If anyone is at a range with unsafe people - leave - report to range. Our group, gun owners, especially CCW holders, tend to be more law abiding and safer than the general population. So here, whether safety or not, I'll trust any of you before others because I know statistics & probability are on my side.
We can disagree, but we all have each other's back.
kbm6893
Member
You're stats are completely skewed and you know it. Not everybody owns a gun or comes into contact with one. We all drive, walk up and down stairs, etc. When you get onto the highway, there are literally hundreds of fast moving cars all around you, with drivers changing lanes, entering and exiting the highway. Higher probability of being involved in an accident. Compare actual gun OWNERS (not guns. Some of us one dozens) to AD's. Higher percentage. Do we walk around with hundreds of gun owners surrounding us, ALL of them manipulating their firearms? And since the majority of ND's are not even reported (you think someone calls the cops when they put a hole in their bedroom wall but hit nobody?), the stats you posted are even more inaccurate.
It's simple: you feel you won't EVER have an ND because you practice firearms discipline and keep your finger off the trigger. Professional shooters have had them, but you feel you will never.And WHEN somebody has an ND, they don't always put a bullet into themselves. The little boy playing in the next room catches the bullet. You base your choice to carry that way on the one in a million chance you will actually USE your gun in a real self defense situation. And you refuse to look at the actual cases where a safety saved a life, not to mention the cases that dont even get reported. If you train to unsafe as you draw, the safety offers nothing but benefits. Members of this forum are not representative of actual gun owners. The majority of gun owners shoot a couple hundred rounds a year. And yet they're carring their 6 pound trigger striker fired guns with no safety and MINIMAL training and experience. Accident waiting to happen.
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EXERCISINGTHE2ND
Member
What would be your explanation of accidental shootings vs poisonings?
Interesting read: http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...aims-more-die-accident-medical-misadventures/
Interesting read: http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...aims-more-die-accident-medical-misadventures/
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JJEH
Member
These safety threads are seriously getting ridiculous...
If you choose a personal weapon with an safety it is YOUR choice!
If you get one issued w/o an safety it is NOT YOUR choice.
No matter what scenario you have to face; it is YOUR responsibility to handle it safely!
YOU have to be familiar with the weapon system and YOU have to practice to be safe and sure about what you do! Nobody else!
I have a M&P40 w/ ambi safety and love it. I don't give a darn if anybody else likes it or not. Because I have to make sure to handle it correctly!
Yes, I prefer weapons with an safety! Why? Because I can!
If you choose a personal weapon with an safety it is YOUR choice!
If you get one issued w/o an safety it is NOT YOUR choice.
No matter what scenario you have to face; it is YOUR responsibility to handle it safely!
YOU have to be familiar with the weapon system and YOU have to practice to be safe and sure about what you do! Nobody else!
I have a M&P40 w/ ambi safety and love it. I don't give a darn if anybody else likes it or not. Because I have to make sure to handle it correctly!
Yes, I prefer weapons with an safety! Why? Because I can!
kbm6893
Member
Same argument. Not everybody has a gun in the house. Everybody has Pine Sol, paint thinner, bug spray, or some other poisonous substance. Stands to reason there will be more poisonings. And while I am an NRA life member, you can't take what they report as gospel, and frankly, i don't support everything they do. Stats and facts are molded to fit the opinion of the company or person saying them. Politicians do it all the time. Obama says he is improving the unemployment numbers, based on the amount of people who are receiving unemployment benefits. He conveniently does not mention those who have exhausted them. For years, cigarette comapnies wouldn't admit their product was causing cancer.Didn't make it the truth, now did it?
And the cigrrette analogy can be taken even further. Smokers object to public places being designated smoke free. They say they have a right to smoke since ti is their choice. They'll even go so far as to say "why don't they regulate sugar and fatty foods?". BecauseIi don't care if you butter your bacon and wash it down with a milkshake. Your arteries are yours to clog if you want. But your smoke DOES affect me since I have to breathe it. When some idiot lets a shot go because he makes a mistake, innocents sometimes pay the price. And I MIGHT feel less strongly about it if there was SOME level of competency that is demonstrated before buying a gun, but I have seen WAY too many unsafe people at MULTIPLE ranges. Go over to youtube and watch some of those gun videos. Makes me cringe.
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tocohillsguy
Member
I believe this statement is quite misleading. A 70 series 1911 can fire when it is dropped on its muzzle, because inertia causes the firing pin to move forward and strike the primer. An 80 series 1911, as well as most (if not all) striker fired pistols have a firing pin block to prevent this from occuring. It has nothing to do with whether or not the pistol has a hammer. Likewise, some revolvers can go bang when dropped and others will not, depending upon how they deal with the firing pin.
I'm a fan of the 1911. I have both 70 series and 80 series pistols. Sometimes I find it ironic that 1911 purists shun the 80 series because of the firing pin safety, but are otherwise comfortable with a weapon that has both a grip and thumb safety. In contrast, many in the polymer crowd shun the thumb and grip safety, but don't even know their gun has a firing pin safety.
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kbm6893
Member
I was gonna correct him, but I let it go. Modern firarms of all types have firing pin blocks. Dropping loaded weapons is certainly not something you should do intentionally, but unless it's a cocked revolver or an older 1911, it's not gonna go off.
tocohillsguy
Member
Again, not exactly true. None of your high-end 1911's have firing pin blocks (e.g., Wilson, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, etc.). Even the new Kimber Super Carry is a 70 series with no firing pin block. In lieu of a firing pin block they sometimes have a titanium firing pin (it's lighter) and a beefed up firing pin spring. Again, some like that solution and others do not. If you want to purchase one in California, you have no choice but to purchase one with a titanium firing pin. Of course it's easy enough to change out if that's your choice.
Likewise, the CZ85 Combat has no firing pin block, but the CZ85B does have one (hence the "B" for block). As a consequence the Combat has the better trigger.
Also, you can purchase a brand new, single action revolver without a firing pin block, and I suspect there are other weapons that can be purchased without one.
My point being, that it makes sense to understand what you're buying and how it works. For example, I don't know if a Browning Hi Power has a firing pin block, but you can bet I would know if I owned one. There are pros and cons with every design, and you are best served by understanding them.
So, bringing this back to the OP's topic, I would want to know exactly how the M&P's thumb safety works. Does it block the trigger or the firing pin? What happens if it breaks off or fails? Can I rack the slide with it engaged? Does it affect the trigger pull or trigger reset? How firmly does it set and release? Does it disengage down like a 1911 (which I believe it does) or up like a 3rd gen S&W? Can one ride it with a high thumb hold or is it too weak for this? Is it a MIM part, quality cast part, or tooled steel (I'm betting MIM)? Is it ambi or single sided or reversible? When it's on the pistol can it be ignored like a 3rd gen S&W, or must it be deployed? Can it be removed at a later date if one decides he or she doesn't like it?
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