Will the Model 22, Model of 1917 Classic fire without moon clips?

[Bhfromme]

I've looked everywhere online but can't get a definitive answer on whether or not the Model 22, Model of 1917 Classic that came out around 2010 will fire without moon clips.

The Model 22-4 Thunder Ranch that was introduced in 2005 will not. The Model 929 that was introduced in 2014 will not. Can anyone tell me whether or not the Model 22, Model of 1917 Classic that came out around 2010 will fire without moon clips?

 

[colt_saa]

Actually this is not a model by model question. This is a revolver by revolver question

Smith & Wesson designs the firearms to be fired with moon clips used as the method of head spacing

Probably a good 80% of the revolvers out there that fire rimless ammunition can fire with the case mouth sitting against the cylinder throat. This is of course somewhat dependent on the ammunition due to both the length of the casing and the crimp used.

My Model 22 Thunder Ranch Revolver does fire without moon clips with most factory ammunition that I have tried, I just choose to never use it that way.

I alwasy use moon clips so there is never an issue when firing the shorter cartridges. This goes for all my Model 610s, Model 25/625s, Model 627s, Model 940s, Etc.

 

[MajorD]

When I had a thunder ranch it fired just fine without the clips

 

[Dale53]

I use moonclips with my 625's. If you don't like using steel clips which require tools, then you can use the RIMZ Polymer clips. They load easily without the use of tools.

The steel are better for "Serious Use", like a duty reload as they retain the cartridges better if dropped. However, the RIMZ clips work just fine for general range use.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[StrawHat]

…Actually this is not a model by model question. This is a revolver by revolver question…

This is the best answer for the newer revolver models. Some will, some won't.

Kevin

 

[H Richard]

I think it is more an ammo by ammo question. The case length (provided is is not roll crimped) will determine if it will chamber. I have a 25-2 and a Bazillion (1946) model and both easily chamber and shoot without moon clips. (but why?) Moon clips are so much easier to use. A good tool for loading and unloading clips makes the job very easy.
This Moonclip Tool I have used for .45, 9mm (940 5 round, and 986 9mm 7 round). Load up a couple dozen clips at home and shoot up at the range and then sit at your leisure and unload at home.

 

[StrawHat]

…I have a 25-2 and a Bazillion (1946) model and both easily chamber and shoot without moon clips. (but why?)…

Those revolvers were built on the fact they needed to chamber AND fire ACP ammunition without any clips. The clips were designed for extraction only.

Starting with the stainless models, the factory got the idea the headspace was determined by the clip and the depth of chambering became sloppy.

Kevin

 

[kaaskop49]

On my Model 22 of 1917, one chamber is bored (proper term?) a hair more deeply than the other 5. As a result, an unclipped ACP round will not fire in that chamber; it sits a smidge lower. I have plenty of moon clips: full, half, and 1/3 so I don't let this bother me.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

There's always auto rim brass. No moon clips to wrestle with.

 

[Krogen]

Those revolvers were built on the fact they needed to chamber AND fire ACP ammunition without any clips. The clips were designed for extraction only.

Starting with the stainless models, the factory got the idea the headspace was determined by the clip and the depth of chambering became sloppy.

Kevin

Strange that the factory got lazy and forced the use of moon clips. One would think they'd keep the sharp shoulder so the case would headspace on the case mouth. At least one could fire 45 ACP even if extraction was a pain.

I know this is apples and oranges, but my Blackhawk convertible headspaces 45 ACP on the mouth. Not that you'd be able to use moon clips anyhow. The 45 Colt cylinder, of course, headspaces on the rim.

 

[Sistema1927]

My TR 22-4 will fire without using moon clips. Needing to poke brass out with a dowel or pencil means that I only tried it once.

 

[Pizza Bob]

I don't think that S&W got lazy or sloppy, as Paul Harvey used to say, here's the rest of the story...

There may be people that tell you that you can use your rimless cartridge moon clip gun without moon clips. They will claim that the round will headspace on the shoulder in the chamber, theoretically, they are correct. However, since SAAMI sets the specs for cartridge dimensions, the shoulder is placed at maximum case length depth for a given caliber. My experience has been that most factory ammo or brass, when new, is always considerably less than this dimension - meaning that, in reality, headspacing on that shoulder, by the case mouth, seldom actually occurs.

This is more common with newer .45 ACP guns with SAAMI-spec chambers. While SAAMI has been around since 1926 and the .45 ACP was adopted in its current form in 1911, the SAAMI cartridge dimension drawings weren't done until 1979. So it is quite possible that early .45 ACP revolvers may be more likely to function without clips, with a higher rate of reliability, than guns made post-1979, as chamber dimensions were at the discretion of the manufacturer.

Have a gun chambered for a rimless (or semi-rimmed) cartridge? Use moon clips. With the proper tools, or the polymer clips, you will grow to love them.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[StrawHat]

I don't think that S&W got lazy or sloppy, as Paul Harvey used to say, here's the rest of the story...

There may be people that tell you that you can use your rimless cartridge moon clip gun without moon clips. They will claim that the round will headspace on the shoulder in the chamber, theoretically, they are correct. However, since SAAMI sets the specs for cartridge dimensions, the shoulder is placed at maximum case length depth for a given caliber. My experience has been that most factory ammo or brass, when new, is always considerably less than this dimension - meaning that, in reality, headspacing on that shoulder, by the case mouth, seldom actually occurs.

This is more common with newer .45 ACP guns with SAAMI-spec chambers. While SAAMI has been around since 1926 and the .45 ACP was adopted in its current form in 1911, the SAAMI cartridge dimension drawings weren't done until 1979. So it is quite possible that early .45 ACP revolvers may be more likely to function without clips, with a higher rate of reliability, than guns made post-1979, as chamber dimensions were at the discretion of the manufacturer.

Have a gun chambered for a rimless (or semi-rimmed) cartridge? Use moon clips. With the proper tools, or the polymer clips, you will grow to love them.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

As much as I would like to believe what you are saying, that does not explain how one cylinder can have several different depths of chambers. If S&W would at least make them the same, you can trim for that length. All my ACP revolvers from the Model 25-2 and before have no issue with factory ammunition, nor hand loads. But, having to shake the spent cartridges loose or poke them out is not something I enjoy so I use moon clips or 45 AR cartridges. Same with my newer revolvers. I guess with me it is a moot point as I don't use loose rounds but it is an option.

When S&W designed the 1917, the problem was not designing a revolver that could chamber and fire the Army cartridge. The challenge was getting them out of the cylinder after they had been fired. S&W patented two devices to accomplish this, the half moon clip we all know and a full moon clip that was a bit more complicated. The Army wisely selected the 1/2 moon clip for a variety of reasons.

And let's not forget that the first run of the Colt Model 1917 had cylinders bored straight through and required the moon clips to headspace and eject.

It wasn't until the 70s that what we know as the full moon clip was devised by Ranch Products in Malinta, Ohio. And it has been a godsend or bane since then!

Kevin