Will we ever learn about this Virus !?

[Absalom]

I tease my German friends all the time about their strict obedience to authority.....

But let's not get carried away with the cultural stereotypes. Since I have close family over there, including some elderly high-risk relatives, I'm following German media quite closely; the internet allows that pretty much in real time these days.

They are having the same issues and discussions as we do. Different state governors aren't always on the same page, there are heated discussions about re-opening. Most German schoolkids have been back in school for some weeks, by the way.

But there is no question that the governmental structure and the acceptance of government's role both in helping business and protecting people makes faster action more acceptable, and thus more effective.

Case in point: in a district not far from where my folks live, a concentrated outbreak of Covid cases at a meat plant led to a shutdown of the entire district a few days ago. With the start of school holidays imminent, most German states with major holiday destinations immediately imposed a no-stay order for any people with an address in that area, meaning if you had booked a trip or hotel room, it was cancelled and you were not allowed to come. Bam. And that is that.

Obviously, it would not be that easy here, even if the political will existed. And philosophically speaking, that's probably good in general. But I do find myself having to explain to Germans that the majority of Americans really aren't as feckless as we look to the world right now, where our fight over masks sounds a lot like a fight over the right to run a red light. A German headline I read just yesterday loosely translated as "America seems to have just given up".

 

[venomballistics]

Americans blindly resisting information; what could go wrong? Let's see....125k dead today and spiking. The 'stupid' approach didn't work here just like it didn't in Sweden.

Per capita .... and why you should use it.
in a small town population of say 2000, a day with 100 dead is clearly devastating. It would be difficult in such a town to go without a loss hitting close to home.

100 dead in Chicago ... that's just another day.

Current per capita for Sweden 523 per million
Current per capita for the UK ..640 per million
Current per capita for the USA ... ahh forget it ... I lead you to the numbers multiple times.
Seeking truth and critical thought is not for our current society

 

[biku324]

I notice you have no information link. Here are the data provided by Johns Hopkins that the (Trump/Pompeo) State Department uses. They don't resemble whatever you're saying for some reason. Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

 

[PatriotX]

Per capita .... and why you should use it...


[snip]
Current per capita for Sweden 523 per million
Current per capita for the UK ..640 per million
Current per capita for the USA ... ahh forget it ... I lead you to the numbers multiple times.
Seeking truth and critical thought is not for our current society

Let's use your metric of 'per capita' to assess severity then.

Population of Sweden: ~10 million.
Population of New Jersey: ~9 million.
Population of Michigan: ~10 million.

Covid mortality/million Sweden: 547 (per you)

Covid mortality/million New Jersey: ~1600

Covid mortality/million Michigan: ~610

(Source: Statista.com)

When you look at a couple of states that have had a similar infection timeline and population size to Sweden, we aren't doing as well as our Scandinavian friends.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

 

[biku324]

Let's use your metric of 'per capita' to assess severity then.

Population of Sweden: ~10 million.
Population of New Jersey: ~9 million.
Population of Michigan: ~10 million.

Covid mortality/million Sweden: 547 (per you)

Covid mortality/million New Jersey: ~1600

Covid mortality/million Michigan: ~610

(Source: Statista.com)

When you look at a couple of states that have had a similar infection timeline and population size to Sweden, we aren't doing as well as our Scandinavian friends.

Please don't lump all Scandanavians together - Norway, Finland, and Denmark all have FAR lower rates per 100,000 than Sweden or us.

 

[venomballistics]

Please don't lump all Scandanavians together - Norway, Finland, and Denmark all have far lower rates per 100,000 then Sweden, or even us.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 9,904,963 Cases and 496,866 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

again, I will offer this rare jewl of unaltered raw data.
Worldometers sites their sources .. so its not "Per me"

There is no political bias. Just numbers as they are gathered.
If the data set allows, they are rendered into graphs.
They do not tell you what to feel about the number. it's just the numbers.
I prefer raw data over the sensationalized versions offered by Rachel Maddow, Anderson Cooper or any other whack job on the tube.

 

[biku324]

And Johns Hopkins has direct access to data, not secondary sources. Either tells a story unfriendly to 'everything's fine.' Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

 

[susieqz]

go near one of my cats without a mask n i WILL shoot.
they are more important than you are.

i don't miss much.

 

[Univibe]

Doctors not connected with the Administration estimate 200,000 dead by Election Day.

 

[Kurusu]

WGAC about Europe anyway?

Guess what? I do.

 

[steelslaver]

Show me the numbers. All I hear is a spike in cases/deaths.

I see confirmed cases at 2510156 then +46613 (new cases?)
Deaths show 126854 then +669 (assumed new deaths?)

What percentage of the total cases and deaths are the new cases and deaths? I don't come up with any figure even close to 1% so where is the spike?

The + is in the last 24 hours. in your example that means 46,613 new confirmed cases and 669 new deaths in the last 24 hours. Last 24 it was +126,924 (new confirmed) and
+647 DEAD

It is better than the previous peak, but it did not keep dropping and is climbing again, just like most of us "doomers" predicted it would if we reopened.

The death spike isn't the highest spike put it is another high spot on the graph, The number of new cases is very high compared to any where on the graph since Feb. Yes, some of the new case rise is because of increased testing. The fact that the number of deaths per day is climbing again is NOT from testing. DUH

You can paint any kind of "picture" you want, but, 600+ deaths a day is not good (thats about 20,000 per month) and we are not doing "great" Poorly comes to my mind.

The Bell curve everyone promised isn't working. Imagine that a virus that doesn't know how to do mathematics.

I love the idea that we should slow down testing. Brilliant, lets stick our head in the sand, if we don't know just how many cases there are and how it is spreading that will make it all better. That is so stupid. Maybe the most moronic comment I have heard about the whole thing and that takes some doing.

Just ignore it and it will go away has never been a good strategy.

 

[ladder13]

Guess what? I do.

I certainly did not mean the people, I was referring to the constant comparisons to nations of 5-10 million with a nation of 330 million and the handling of this situation. Totally different set of circumstances.

 

[dockmurgw]

Dick Cheney without a mask is no threat to anyone...as long as he's not bird hunting at the same time.

 

[dockmurgw]

I certainly did not mean the people, I was referring to the constant comparisons to nations of 5-10 million with a nation of 330 million and the handling of this situation. Totally different set of circumstances.

As the saying goes...apples to oranges. The Europe / US comparisons are meaningless.

 

[steelslaver]

I will agree with the different circumstances to a degree. Changes in population density etc. But, mainly Europe compares to mostly dairy cows and the US compares to mostly range cattle.

That is the main thing that changes the effect of the virus. That and the Europeans history being a lot closer to the plague and its effects.

But, then the idea that there is no value in doing comparisons, has no value what so ever.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Dick Cheney without a mask is no threat to anyone...as long as he's not bird hunting at the same time.

And your point is? Dick's and mine is this:

 

[Kurusu]

I certainly did not mean the people, I was referring to the constant comparisons to nations of 5-10 million with a nation of 330 million and the handling of this situation. Totally different set of circumstances.

Europe is not a Country. It is a Continent.

Population in Europe is around 740 million.

If you consider only the EU countries. It's around 445 million.

I don't get your point. Sorry.

 

[Onomea]

Coronavirus Update (Live): 9,904,963 Cases and 496,866 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

again, I will offer this rare jewl of unaltered raw data.
Worldometers sites their sources .. so its not "Per me"

There is no political bias. Just numbers as they are gathered.
If the data set allows, they are rendered into graphs.
They do not tell you what to feel about the number. it's just the numbers.
I prefer raw data over the sensationalized versions offered by Rachel Maddow, Anderson Cooper or any other whack job on the tube.

Per the above source, Japan, a nation of 126 million in a land area less than that of California, has eight deaths per million. The US, with a population of 328 million, has 386 deaths per million.

(Actually, 90% of the population of Japan lives within the Tokyo - Osaka metropolitan corridor, so population density is understated by the California example.)

I don't believe the China numbers — 58 per million with a population of 1.4B within a land area the size of CONUS — but the Japanese numbers are easily as accurate as our own.

But, frankly, I don't really get the point of comparing the US to other countries.

 

[ladder13]

.........

But, frankly, I don't really get the point of comparing the US to other countries.

Exactly....

 

[Absalom]

It is unfortunate that a certain part of our population looks at foreign countries only to feel either threatened or superior.

But you can actual learn stuff. Even if it might not be directly applicable here.

And Europe, just like the US, is indeed a continent. The picture is complex. You can come up with all kinds of numbers comparisons. Sweden is doing worse than the US as a whole. But Oregon is doing better than Germany overall.

And policies and behaviors vary. Here is a blurb from the British Telegraph yesterday.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_O1vDN4PBQE[/ame]

 

[ladder13]

Reading is fundamental.

 

[Onomea]

What I was getting at, with my comment of not seeing the point in comparing the US to other countries, is that while we are doing better than some countries and worse than others, it does not change the status of the virus in our country to know this.

We are, collectively, responsible for our leadership, our behavior, and, accordingly, our country's Covid-19 destiny.

(Absalom's video clip, above, makes the same point.)

 

[steelslaver]

Reading is fundamental.

Without comprehension reading is worthless.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Even Mitch . . .

"Until we find a vaccine, these are really important," McConnell said Friday while holding up a blue mask, according to CNN affiliate WKYT. "This is not as complicated as a ventilator, and this is a way to indicate that you want to protect others."

McConnell made the comments while visiting a hospital in Morehead, Kentucky, to talk about the money provided to rural healthcare systems from the CARES Act, the massive coronavirus stimulus package that was enacted two months ago.

"I see various events on television in which people are clearly not wearing masks, not taking it seriously and not doing others a favor," McConnell also said, according to the Louisville Courier-Journal. "We need to get past that in order to protect not only ourselves but our friends and colleagues and others until we get to a vaccine."

 

[The Big D]

And so is math...

...yet the doomers intentionally ignore the FACT there is a less than 1% percent chance of dying from the beervirus even if you have it. Period. FACT!

And that does not account for the vastly inflated number of deaths attributed to the sweet and sour sicken.

Seems no one dies from Alzheimer's effects, heart disease, kidney disease, etc. nowadays.

Be safe...be well.

Reading is fundamental.

 

[Doug M.]

Comparing one state to another is also flawed. Social conditions differ. Congestion levels differ.

If one looks at NY, NYC is a lot different from rural upstate (most people don't know that there are only six real urban areas in NY: NYC; Buffalo area; Rochester area; Syracuse/Oneida/Utica/Rome; Albany; Binghamton). The rest of the state is mostly tress, cows, and vineyards. When NYC is heavily dependent on mass transit - even when down to just "essential workers", the subways and busses are/were crowded. Private vehicle transportation is not as common as it is in other places, and not just driving in NYC (and north Jersey) sucks. Parking and storage are awful.

There are large parts of the western US where the population density is very low. Back out Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia (and I wish we could) and Washington's population is pretty small for a state of the size. That heavily impacts transmission. There are counties in this state (mine might be one, not sure) where there are a lot more cows than people - several times more.

Note that the "Spanish Flu" (a misnomer, but a common reference) of a century ago ran for well over a year. We are still in the early parts of this. The learning curve has been and still is very steep - it is probably still true that we don't know what we don't know about the symptoms, long term aftermath, transmission, etc., and likely won't for YEARS.

Are the pronouncements from "experts" shifting? Sure. What is known or at least strongly suspected today differs a LOT from what was known or suspected on January 1. Frankly, all travel to and from China (and probably all of Asia) should have prohibited in November. I can imagine the screaming then, but with what we have learned since then, who really wants to argue seriously that I am wrong? No one enjoys this. It's been a pain in my butt since the orders started; while there has not been a major change in my life because my wife and I rarely socialize, there are a few things I value that are much harder to do or impossible. Oh well.

There will be a variety of long term consequences. The economic damage was bound to happen either way - due to shutdowns by order, or shutdown because the workers are not available due to their health.

Death stats: if death is hastened by the COVID's impact on underlying conditions, that's a COVID death. Since so few people pay attention to death stats anyway, I doubt very many can do a decent comparison. One would have to do a LOT of longitudinal research and comparison to get a decent idea of the death rate now versus a year ago, versus a decade ago.

 

[UncleEd]

...yet the doomers intentionally ignore the FACT there is a less than 1% percent chance of dying from the beervirus even if you have it. Period. FACT!

And that does not account for the vastly inflated number of deaths attributed to the sweet and sour sicken.

Seems no one dies from Alzheimer's effects, heart disease, kidney disease, etc. nowadays.

Be safe...be well.

The whole world of nations is crazy. The Big
D is sane.

I rest easy in that knowledge.

 

[ladder13]

...yet the doomers intentionally ignore the FACT there is a less than 1% percent chance of dying from the beervirus even if you have it. Period. FACT!

And that does not account for the vastly inflated number of deaths attributed to the sweet and sour sicken.

Seems no one dies from Alzheimer's effects, heart disease, kidney disease, etc. nowadays.

Be safe...be well.

You got one on your list now, I have a dozen and growing

 

[steelslaver]

You can blather on and on about how deaths from car wrecks, gun shots or anything else were listed as virus deaths. But, the flat fact is that the number of deaths in the US soared far above what was normal pre virus.

If you can read and comprehend try this. Written in late April.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...covid-19-death-toll-undercounted/?arc404=true

Or this Times article

120,000 Missing Deaths: Tracking the True Toll of the Coronavirus Outbreak - The New York Times

Basically, between March 15th and May 16th of 2020 the US experienced a23% increase over expected deaths. that was 94,700 more deaths that expected for that time period and only 76,101 were contributed to the virus. That still leaves another 18,600 MORE deaths than normally expected for that period.

Kinda wrecks havoc the Virus death count is over blown because with the every death is being blamed on it theory.

It is correct that you can torture numbers into confessing all kinds of things. but, the basic math is simple.

A normal year between March 15 and May 16th has about 90,000 less deaths than we did this year. Don't matter what number you put in which columns. Heart attack, cancer, suffocation, stoke car wreck, virus, flu. The total is what tells the true story and this years total is way way high