What was your hardball load? The articles I've read that best accuracy is around 820 fps.
I've used 5.0 gr Bullseye, 5.7 w231, 6.2 Unique, 6.2 Universal, and 5.1 green dot. W231 and universal worked better than the others at 50 yds.
Win 231 to be discontinued in the future (not sure when)...
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What was your hardball load? The articles I've read that best accuracy is around 820 fps.
I've used 5.0 gr Bullseye, 5.7 w231, 6.2 Unique, 6.2 Universal, and 5.1 green dot. W231 and universal worked better than the others at 50 yds.
That might be what that chart says, but Alliant has no data for loading e3 in anything but shotgun shells. I've used it for light .45 ACP target loads. I worked up a charge that is much less weight than Bullseye or 231, but is comparable in accuracy. My experience tells me that e3 is NOT the equivalent of HP-38 or Winchester 231.
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No data or no published data? Did you call them and ask for a starting load? The ADI chart says within 5%. Did it vary more than that? I would be interested in your findings for no other reason than having another shotgun powder that works for 45 ACP.
As others have said, one needs to be careful with these powders if there is no published data.
Alliant told me to start at 4.0/230. I found that to be very light. I would start at 4.2/230 and save yourself some time when working up a load for your gun with AS.
I've heard that 4.9/230 max was published by Alliant years ago but I've never seen that data personally. From personal experience I can tell you that 4.7/230 is plenty warm. So 4.2/230 min and 4.7/230 max. YMMV.
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AveragEd
Member
Contacting powder manufacturers for load data is a good idea. They often elect not to publish data that they feel will not be popular - using a "shotgun-only" powder in a handgun, a recipe that doesn't yield good accuracy for them or many other reasons. I've often found data for something I wanted to try by making a simple telephone call.
Ed
Ed
Moe Mentum
Member
Every time I work up a new load, the powder gets discontinued or you just can't find it. Really getting tired of all this.
AveragEd
Member
Moe, I hear ya. I was in mourning when it was announced that SR4756 was being dropped but when I mentioned that on this forum, I received a tip on a gun shop 120 miles away that had lots of one-pound bottles of it in stock and another poster from 140 miles away sold me a near-full eight-pound jug of it. I now have enough SR4756 to last me my lifetime and probably then some. Let people know what you want - you never know who might be able to help you out.
Ed
Ed
Jboutfishn
Member
Picked up and 8lb jug of 231 last month, $160.
MyDads38
Member
Winchester and Hodgdon powders have made a big come back in my area the past 6 months. TiteGroup can be had for $136.99/8 lb. jug and W231 for $145/8 lb. jug. Primers $27.99/1,000-any brand. ALLIANT, well that's another story-none to be had here for over 2 years now :-(
Really wish I had endless funds right now, but in the process of moving and reloading purchases have come to a screeching halt for now. But I do have a nice little cache, and when the smoke clears, I'll be adding what I can-when I can
Really wish I had endless funds right now, but in the process of moving and reloading purchases have come to a screeching halt for now. But I do have a nice little cache, and when the smoke clears, I'll be adding what I can-when I can
I would like to know.....
I would really like to know where I could buy it before it got to the store. Do they sell to scalpers before their distributors? I find it amazing that for 2 1/2 years somebody has been buying powder before it gets to the stores at such a rate that there is very little of it anywhere in the country. I think my theory that they are dumping it all into a big hole in Nevada is more likely.
I would really like to know where I could buy it before it got to the store. Do they sell to scalpers before their distributors? I find it amazing that for 2 1/2 years somebody has been buying powder before it gets to the stores at such a rate that there is very little of it anywhere in the country. I think my theory that they are dumping it all into a big hole in Nevada is more likely.
AveragEd
Member
I have posted this before as well as written it in my column many times and it remains true - if you shop where everyone else shops, you won't find much on the shelves. And where does everyone else think of first when they want to buy something? The "big box stores" of the shooting industry - Bass Pro Shop, Cabela's, Gander Mountain and the larger gun shops and distributors. The entire time I've been reading on Internet forums and hearing at gun clubs that there are no primers, powder or ammo to buy, I was having no problem finding all that "unavailable" stuff at my small local gun shops.
But, you ask, how can that be? Well, let's look at the situation from the other end. You're a manufacturer and are holding orders for goods from many distributors. Some of them pay you on delivery while you extend credit terms to others, some as long as six months. But money's tight, costs are rising and keeping cash flowing is important to you in this economy so who do you ship to first? The guy who pays first, of course.
Now you're a distributor holding orders from gun shops large and small, some of whom pay right away and some who you allow to pay later. Whose orders are you going to fill first? Smaller shops tend to pay right away while larger ones often take advantage of credit terms, so it shouldn't be a surprise that small shops have inventory while larger ones may not.
Then there's the contractual arrangements into which many big stores are locked. They buy their Hodgdon Powders, for example, only from ABC distributor so if ABC is out, the big store is too. But small shops have established relationships with numerous distributors and if one doesn't have what the shop's customers want, the shop has other sources to use. One local one-man shop that is open just two hours each day buys from 17 different distributors. He's been at the same location for 46 years so his prices must be attractive. And if he doesn't have what you want, he more often than not can get it for you. On top of all that, he knows your name when you walk in the door.
You aren't going to find a lot of those shops on the Internet or in the Yellow Pages. Do some research at the gun clubs to which you belong (you DO belong to at least one, right?) and you'll learn where they are. The goods are out there; you just have to shop where the masses don't. One shooter complained on an Internet forum that he was on a waiting list for something with 1,200 other people at Shyda's Gun Shop, a large retail/wholesale store in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Nothing against Shyda's but I asked him why he would shop where 1,200 other people shop for the same thing.
Absolutely the only thing I would have to hunt for right now is CCI MiniMag 22LR ammo but that would only be a problem if I needed any. Everything else I either have plenty of or know where I can get more.
Ed
But, you ask, how can that be? Well, let's look at the situation from the other end. You're a manufacturer and are holding orders for goods from many distributors. Some of them pay you on delivery while you extend credit terms to others, some as long as six months. But money's tight, costs are rising and keeping cash flowing is important to you in this economy so who do you ship to first? The guy who pays first, of course.
Now you're a distributor holding orders from gun shops large and small, some of whom pay right away and some who you allow to pay later. Whose orders are you going to fill first? Smaller shops tend to pay right away while larger ones often take advantage of credit terms, so it shouldn't be a surprise that small shops have inventory while larger ones may not.
Then there's the contractual arrangements into which many big stores are locked. They buy their Hodgdon Powders, for example, only from ABC distributor so if ABC is out, the big store is too. But small shops have established relationships with numerous distributors and if one doesn't have what the shop's customers want, the shop has other sources to use. One local one-man shop that is open just two hours each day buys from 17 different distributors. He's been at the same location for 46 years so his prices must be attractive. And if he doesn't have what you want, he more often than not can get it for you. On top of all that, he knows your name when you walk in the door.
You aren't going to find a lot of those shops on the Internet or in the Yellow Pages. Do some research at the gun clubs to which you belong (you DO belong to at least one, right?) and you'll learn where they are. The goods are out there; you just have to shop where the masses don't. One shooter complained on an Internet forum that he was on a waiting list for something with 1,200 other people at Shyda's Gun Shop, a large retail/wholesale store in Lebanon, Pennsylvania. Nothing against Shyda's but I asked him why he would shop where 1,200 other people shop for the same thing.
Absolutely the only thing I would have to hunt for right now is CCI MiniMag 22LR ammo but that would only be a problem if I needed any. Everything else I either have plenty of or know where I can get more.
Ed
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per post #62;
e3 is a different animal........
In 12 Ga. trap loads, 14grs with a 7/8 oz. load will get 1165fps.
It takes 16.5grs of Red Dot to get the 7/8 oz. load to 1160fps.
e3's energy is way over what Red Dot puts out, do to makeup.
I tried it in my 38 special and no way is it in the same ball park with w231.
One reason it is not listed as a pistol powder.......
the burn rate and the "White" smoke does not make it a good powder for this use.
You might look at Clays...............
Safe shooting.
e3 is a different animal........
In 12 Ga. trap loads, 14grs with a 7/8 oz. load will get 1165fps.
It takes 16.5grs of Red Dot to get the 7/8 oz. load to 1160fps.
e3's energy is way over what Red Dot puts out, do to makeup.
I tried it in my 38 special and no way is it in the same ball park with w231.
One reason it is not listed as a pistol powder.......
the burn rate and the "White" smoke does not make it a good powder for this use.
You might look at Clays...............
Safe shooting.
Jim Watson
Member
Hodgdon (and AA) have been flip-flopping powder vendors for allegedly identical powders since day one. If Gendye sees enough market, they can bring out a new powder by cheaper, cleaner processing that will be a functional equivalent of W231.
MyDads38
Member
This is how I ended up with 2-8lb. jugs of W231 and a lonely 4 lb. jug of Red Dot!
The little shop I got it from is actually a custom gun shop which sells firearms, accessories reloading supplies, etc. They are out in the middle of the country and only open 9-5 M-F. It's hard for me to get there after work, but when they told me they had W231 powder in stock, I made the effort! They are very competitive on pricing for all the things they carry, so worth the trip if you can get there before closing! I'm confused. If I'm reading this thread correctly we have one manufacturer's report that it is being discontinued and another report - from I think the same manufacturer - that it is just a rumor.
Assuming both are correct is the belief that W231 is being discontinued and HP-38 will continue on? If they really are the same powder (which is another thread - the data for the two are different in my Speer manual) then obsoleting one makes sense from an overall supply chain complexity standpoint. (I wonder how many times they've answered the question "Are they REALLY the same powder?" LOL)
Assuming both are correct is the belief that W231 is being discontinued and HP-38 will continue on? If they really are the same powder (which is another thread - the data for the two are different in my Speer manual) then obsoleting one makes sense from an overall supply chain complexity standpoint. (I wonder how many times they've answered the question "Are they REALLY the same powder?" LOL)
I don't see much concern or questioning that they're not the same powder. I think most agree that they are the same. To me the question is "If W231 really is going to be discontinued, does that mean ONLY W231 discontinued, or W231 & HP-38 both will be discontinued - since they're the same powder?"
If it means both I'm (literally) going to go to my LGS that I know has HP-38 and buy some. If they're just going to get rid of W231 and HP-38 will continue to be produced - then great.
If it means both I'm (literally) going to go to my LGS that I know has HP-38 and buy some. If they're just going to get rid of W231 and HP-38 will continue to be produced - then great.
Does it not make since that if they have the same lot#, that they came from the same place?
Therefore, if one of gone, so the other?
If you read the paragraph before my last, you will see another person that questions whether they are the same powder.
I have posted this picture more than once, and it should come up in any 231 search.
Therefore, if one of gone, so the other?
If you read the paragraph before my last, you will see another person that questions whether they are the same powder.
I have posted this picture more than once, and it should come up in any 231 search.
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Not necessarily. The reason for discontinuing one may be simply simplification. Maintaining two brands of the same stuff is expensive: Labels, ability to order either, etc. The infrastructure to maintain two is more expensive than just one. And then like I said above, I can only imagine how often their customer service group is called and answers the question "Are these two *REALLY* the same?".
Their goal may be cost reduction, not just eliminating production of a specific powder.
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Nemo288
Member
This has already happened when Hodgdon discontinued H4227 as the IMR version was selling so much better.
Then we saw IMR 4227 available all over the place.
Still do.
Let's wait before any real hysteria sets in!
Putting one powder into 2 different bottles makes little economic sense.
As Bruce once explained it, the only reason they continue to do so is "brand loyalty".
Then we saw IMR 4227 available all over the place.
Still do.
Let's wait before any real hysteria sets in!
Putting one powder into 2 different bottles makes little economic sense.
As Bruce once explained it, the only reason they continue to do so is "brand loyalty".
