Would we dare to fire to protect ourselves

[Shall Not Be Infringed]

Don't you just love the society we've become? The honest law-abiding citizen with everything to lose has to second guess whether they should defend themselves against the federally protected criminal species.

 

[mc5aw]

All I had to do was mind my manners, follow instructions and not attack an officer or grab for his gun with the intent to kill him. Pretty simple formula.

Unfortunately not every member of society shares in this sentiment. If you observe recent protests (Occupy Wall St., etc.), you will notice a cadre of individuals who believe it is their God-given right to confront police with everything from taunts to flaming bottles of gasoline, as well as destroy to property and loot for fun and profit. Some are closet anarchists looking to start trouble, others are gutless opportunists trying to incite conflict for the purposes of personal gain and/or litigation. Every single one of them is a scourge on our nation, and deserves to be treated in the harshest manner possible.

 

[lawandorder]

To get anyone to not respond with like force is one of the goals of these people.

 

[Donn]

Fact is, defend yourself with lethal force and you're rolling the dice, regardless of circumstance. Even if you're cleared by the authorities and live in a state where you can't be taken to civil court, life changes forever. Mr. Bad Guy has family & friends who are going to know you, your family and where you live. At the very least, you'll be forced to move, more than likely out of state. This isn't to say we shouldn't defend ourselves and family by any means necessary, but always be aware of the other shoe dropping.

 

[hangnoose]

EVEN IF YOU WIN, YOU LOSE.

I found out first hand the hard way, & never fired, even though I had 100% justification. NOT GUILTY does not mean innocent, just that guilt cannot be proven, and yes the cost/time fear changes your life forever. While I most likely would not shoot an old lady for ramming my bad ankle with her shopping cart at walmart (tempting as it might be), If my life, or another's were in a true near death/severe risk of bodily injury, I likely would. As said you can't predict the future though.

 

[scorbing]

Like Al Pacino said on the movie "Heat":

"If it's between the suspect and some poor guy, whose wife he's gonna turn into a widow, brother, he's going down."

 

[shouldazagged]

I know this is the popular zeitgeist, but is there really any empirical evidence or confirmation of looters being shot dead in the 20th and 21st centuries?

In 1968 after the King assassination we had rioting in the West End of this city. It was in my long-ago ministry days, and I was doing volunteer chaplain duty at what was then our main trauma center. I saw a fifteen-year-old boy brought in. He had taken a load of 00 buckshot in the face and neck area, shot by the police while he was looting. As I recall he had both hands full with a television set. He was unarmed.

Taking him to surgery was a formality. He was dead or within seconds of death when they wheeled him past within two feet of me.

So yes, empirical evidence exists.

His mother went before the TV cameras and begged parents to keep their kids at home so they wouldn't experience her grief. And the rioting subsided.

I'm not prepared to say the kid's messy death was an appropriate sacrifice to defuse the disturbance. Maybe it was, but that's not my decision to make. It troubles me to this day.

I'm happy to report that we have an excellent, very well-trained metro police force today.

 

[ironhead7544]

It used to be that if someone was committing a felony and was killed, it was justifiable homicide. That changed in the 80ties. Different states had different rules. In some states adultery was a felony. You can see where mistakes and misuse could happen, and it did. Of course, the criminals had to be a lot more careful.

 

[TexasArmed]

Fact is, defend yourself with lethal force and you're rolling the dice, regardless of circumstance. Even if you're cleared by the authorities and live in a state where you can't be taken to civil court, life changes forever. Mr. Bad Guy has family & friends who are going to know you, your family and where you live. At the very least, you'll be forced to move, more than likely out of state. This isn't to say we shouldn't defend ourselves and family by any means necessary, but always be aware of the other shoe dropping.

I am old and have lived almost all of my allotted three score and ten. I hear some say they don't know what they would do
till the time comes. I do know what I will and will not do. I will not be pulled out of a vehicle, till my guns are empty. I will not
be the victim of looting as long as I have bullets in my guns. I
do not consider it my obligation to stop looting elsewhere but I can and will defend my property. That being said I live in Texas where property is protected by our laws. That does not
mean one can lure someone into a garage etc, but it does mean
the laws here protect the property owner, and I like our laws.

And if the worst should happen a life sentence for an old man in bad health isn't going to be all that long. I will not fail to defend my family or me, and I would rather die defending myself than life an extra few minutes while I am mauled to
death. No I am not paranoid, and I do not live in fear of attack
and I don't go where I think one is likely. And if the worst happens, I will not move whether the criminal has kinfolks or
gang members that want me. I will stay right where I live till
such time I am ready to move somewhere else and nobody is
going to run me off. When I come and go I am always armed
usually with a 44 special and a 38 special. So the last thing I am going to worry about is the legal proceedings after a shootout. I won't let someone mug me just to avoid those. And no I am not in the business of protecting property of others but I can and will protect mine.

 

[Rastoff]

It used to be that if someone was committing a felony and was killed, it was justifiable homicide. That changed in the 80ties. Different states had different rules. In some states adultery was a felony. You can see where mistakes and misuse could happen, and it did. Of course, the criminals had to be a lot more careful.

While adultery doesn't really fit the situation where lethal force is necessary, you can use lethal force to prevent great bodily harm or death in California.

The over arching thought here should be that we don't want to use this force. Lethal force should be a last option to save a life or great bodily injury. If used in that fashion, yes, fire to protect yourself. Yes, your life will be changed, but you'll at least continue to have a life.

 

[John R]

Here, people are too civilized to riot.

What's worrying, is shooting someone who happens to be a gang member, and being subjected to revenge from other gang members.

In any event, you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself. What happens after that - so it goes.

Shoot them too.

 

[REM 3200]

I know this is the popular zeitgeist, but is there really any empirical evidence or confirmation of looters being shot dead in the 20th and 21st centuries?

Yes, after Katrina.

 

[Protected One]

Considering all the violent riots and property destruction certain elements of our society heap on communites every time one of our dedicated LEOs shoots an aggressive non-complicant suspect, whether armed or not, I often wonder what would happen to one of us private citizens who might have to shoot for the same reason to protect ourselves/family at home or this time of year in a shopping center parking lot.
Get's sort of scary when you really think what could happen to our family from threats like the LEO in Ferguson got and finally had to resign from his job.

Well now it won't do much good to be armed and be unwilling to use it if the situation arises, will it?

 

[CO_Kid]

There are a lot of people out there who fall under Jeff Cooper's statement to the effect of "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician".

I was at a store the other day, in line at the register. In front of me was a guy sorta kinda open carrying (gun IWB but over a tucked in shirt so the butt was open). I watched that guy for the few minutes we were standing there. Never once did he turn to look at me to acknowledge there was someone behind him. Never once did he look around to gain some situational awareness. And the entire time we were in line, until it was his turn at the register, his face was buried in his phone. He would have been as useless as a screen door on a submarine trying to stop a surprise attack.

 

[firebreather]

Have any of you ever punched a lawyer?

Yup, a couple, including an A.D.A. Sometimes lawyers get a little over zealous with their titles and have to be reminded about laying their hands on people from behind in tense situations, especially LEO's.

 

[cmort666]

If you let somebody murder you, you have no worries.

No plan I have ever had, have now or ever WILL have in the future involves letting somebody harm me.

My solution to the immediate and credible threat of unlawful deadly force is the sudden, unannounced, and overwhelming application of deadly force until the threat is neutralized.

I don't care who doesn't like that or why. If somebody wants to harm me because I wouldn't let somebody else, connected to them or otherwise, harm me, then they'll just get more of the same.

Nobody who would counsel me to let myself be harmed would lift a FINGER to "protect" me.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Yes, after Katrina.

Legally? According to the Times-Picayune, 16 officers who shot shot people were prosecuted. The rest of the reported legal shootings were at people who were shooting at officers.

Looters and the Lessons of Katrina

You would have though a legal looter shooting would have made the paper. Or at least the documentary. I searched "katrina looter shot," "katrina looter killed," "citizen shoots katrina looter," and several other variations. Not a single story about someone being shot for looting.

 

[getoff]

in my brief LEO stint, (12 mo.) i had my sidearm out of the holster 2 times. neither time did i have to use it. in all the years i have had a permit to carry, i have drawn once, and put my hand on the grip ready to draw once. once was after being threatened by some dudes white lining on the interstate and felt i had cut one of them off. the other was an aggressive panhandler who said he didn't belive me that i had no cash and wanted to find out for himself. the biker crowd split as soon as they realized after showing me he had a gun, mine was already out and aimed in his direction. the panhandeler recognized my stance and where my hand was. it changed his mind without even seeing the gun. am i proud or happy about either of those stories? no. am i happy that i had a gun with me when the need arises? yup. would/could i have used it to protect myself and my kids? without a doubt. its a dangerous world we live in and i intend to keep on living for a long time.

 

[DevilDog72]

y e s..........

 

[Bull100]

For 25 years I stood ready willing and able to protect myself and others day in and day out. Today I limit the others to my family and friends except in a very dire circumstances. If I happened to be in a convience store late at night and a team came into the store with intent to rob I'd let them, unless they try to heard me and others into a back room then I would reconsider protecting someone I didn't know.

 

[John R]

I searched for this story. There was a burglar shot inside Fuel City. The owner, armed with a firearm, awoke to find a burglar in his business. This is a valid shoot all day long. This was a burglary of an occupied structure, and the owner felt his life was in danger. Shooting looters on sight, as has been suggested, doesn't happen. You cannot shoot a person running out of Best Buy with a big screen television under each arm.

Carrying that much weight just take out a knee cap and watch him collapse.
These looters are animals and should be treated as such.

 

[Badkarma 1]

I think a saying I heard as a kid sums it up best "If ya can't stands the heat, best stay outta the kitchen!"
Dale

 

[John Rus]

If I had absolutely no choice I would shoot. But if there was something I could do to avoid it, I would. But with some people that's not possible unfortunately.

John.

 

[S&W SS Revolvers]

This thread is important,thoughtful and enlightning to say the least. Personally I beleive property does justify shooting. Being in business , not personally , yet running a dealership for semi-trailers shows how hard it is to really make a profit , and to win. It's tough.

What has always intrigued is the fact that looters tend to "pick" on the businesses and neighborhoods in their part of town. Weird. At the end of the day we , freedom loving and responsible citizens must weigh all aspects in a split second and live with the results. That's a bad answer yet it is what it is...it sucks. Commonsense dictates otherwise.

I do know this anyone that harms any member of my family will not find any corner of this earth to hide unless they are simply lucky. At that point they are dealing with a man who really doesn't care anymore.

 

[Jim1392]

I spent my time protecting others and now the only people I'm concerned about would be my wife and myself. I'm not a LEO anymore and I have no reason to confront bad guys. Unless I walked into a situation that I knew was going to go bad for me I would not get involved. As far as my mindset about carrying a weapon. My feeling is if you haven't mentally commited to being able to use your weapon you shouldn't be carrying it. The seconds you spend thinking should I, or shouldn't I, will cost you your life.

Also Goldstar225 couldn't have said it any better.

"If I am given the choice between defending myself or family and suffering bad publicity, legal fees, and other negative side effects vs. dying or watching a loved one die, the decision is a no brainer".

 

[GatorFarmer]

If one pokes around case law regarding fleeing felons in their particular state, interesting things will pop up. A felon was traditionally outside the law, including no longer being protected by it...hence outlaw. That still colors fleeing felon cases in many places.

It should also be noted that a hostile crowd is a deadly threat by virtue of its numbers, even if unarmed, and that every member of that crowd had assumed the risk.

I am not aware of any vengeance killings where associates of the deceased have taken revenge on a citizen for killing one of their associates. Against another criminal and business rival perhaps, but not a square Joe. I spent years living in the ghetto. No one bothers the white guy with a gun, nice clothes and a hard stare.

 

[jeeps]

It's not the skin ,but the sin. Thou shall not steal or kill.But the culture says were entitled and above the law. It's bull ! ,do crime and face the law. Robbing looting and killing is not right. Certian cultures think they have separate laws and benefits and are above the law .

 

[Wagonmaster]

As the OP please excuse the late response. I appreciate all the responses and hope I would do as most stated they would do. I feel I would have do doubts about protecting myself and the wife but was wondering what the majority good guys out there thought this was what they would do. All the responses just makes me more convinced "make my day".

 

[fredj338]

No wondering about it, there will likely be a trial & depending on the circumstance, it could be long & costly. There almost certainly will be a civil suit following. LEO have some relief from liability, civ do not. Castle doctrine or stand your ground is not legal cover. Yes, deciding to have &/or carry a gun for SD is a serious burden to consider, & your mindset should be established before you make the purchase or put the gun in a holster.

 

[one eye joe]

Be alert, prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Sorry to say this, but these people that are rioting are just looking for an excuse to have a free for all.

If Wilson had been indicted, the same people would have done the same thing using the excuse it was a celebration.

Just no way of winning with this mindset.

What really gets me is these people come from all over the country to cause problems, like I said, it's just one big free for all.

A friend of mine said it best, Fly over and drop job applications and watch them scatter.

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