Would you????
- Thread starter oldman45
- Start date
If either side was armed with anything other than tire irons, it was not learned. No firearms were produced.
The good guy driver wanted to try to take the man bare handed. Introducing his BIL apparently changed things for the perp and he used his truck.
Had it been me, I would not have waited for a potential gun. Even big guys (I am 6'2" and weigh 260) can be whipped and I have been a few times. To me, a tire iron can kill someone and I consider that lethal force.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Went back and read the original post again. I sure would like to know what set that guy off! Now, when young guys get into it like that usualy all it takes is eye contact to start the ball. Usualy with a young hood and a senior its rare for things to go that far without at least the old man makeing a drastic traffic mistake.
I had another one when I was about 26 years old. I admit I was already ajagitated before the incident. I had just helped someone move and then had stopped at a GFs house. Dont even remember what it was over but she wanted to start a fight with me. Anyway I was in my truck and had my dog, rusty with me. A 56 chev with 4 kids in it were haveing a good time with me. They repeatedly raced up to my rear end like they was going right over me, and then back off. They did this about 4 times all laughing their butts off. Again, it was a hot day and we all had our windows down. Finaly they got alongside me to turn left at a light. The light was red. I looked over and let my mouth over ride my butt. Said something like, "do that again and I will tear your head off and-------!
The driver hollered over ya! Come on man, I can take ya! He wasnt raised like I was. I lost it. I got out of the truck, left the door open and grabbed the near pasenger that was hollering, Hey I didnt say anything! I was trying to pull him out the window. This was right downtown van nuys! The light had now changed and horns were honking! The driver took off leaveing me with a handfull of cloth. I dont know if he was scared or trying to kill my dog rusty. Rusty had got out of the truck and now was trying to get out of the way of the car bearing down on him! It really looked like the driver tried to run rusty over! They kept going, passengers flipped me off, horns were honking as I had part of the intersection blocked another light change or two while I was able to catch my paniced dog rusty!
Another one: I had just got word my mother died in wisconsin. I called and got a flight. I then ran downtown to get a haircut for the funneral. I was at a large intersection on the way to the barber, I was to make a left and a young man was going to cross the street. I wrongfully made a wide turn around him. It was no where near him, technicly, I was wrong. He yelled out the vilest thing about me and my mother! His timeing was bad! I stopped the truck right there and got out and ran him down! I got close and seen he was younger than I thought as he had a wispy mustach. He yelled I aint 18 yet! I grabbed him by the mustach and pulled it and told him I didnt think he was going to make 18. I plucked his mustach two or three times trying to restrain myself, and he let me do it!
Usualy we are all young when those things happen. We arent always right either. It`s easy to brag what you would do until it happens to you. It`s more like what you wish you would do!
I had another one when I was about 26 years old. I admit I was already ajagitated before the incident. I had just helped someone move and then had stopped at a GFs house. Dont even remember what it was over but she wanted to start a fight with me. Anyway I was in my truck and had my dog, rusty with me. A 56 chev with 4 kids in it were haveing a good time with me. They repeatedly raced up to my rear end like they was going right over me, and then back off. They did this about 4 times all laughing their butts off. Again, it was a hot day and we all had our windows down. Finaly they got alongside me to turn left at a light. The light was red. I looked over and let my mouth over ride my butt. Said something like, "do that again and I will tear your head off and-------!
The driver hollered over ya! Come on man, I can take ya! He wasnt raised like I was. I lost it. I got out of the truck, left the door open and grabbed the near pasenger that was hollering, Hey I didnt say anything! I was trying to pull him out the window. This was right downtown van nuys! The light had now changed and horns were honking! The driver took off leaveing me with a handfull of cloth. I dont know if he was scared or trying to kill my dog rusty. Rusty had got out of the truck and now was trying to get out of the way of the car bearing down on him! It really looked like the driver tried to run rusty over! They kept going, passengers flipped me off, horns were honking as I had part of the intersection blocked another light change or two while I was able to catch my paniced dog rusty!
Another one: I had just got word my mother died in wisconsin. I called and got a flight. I then ran downtown to get a haircut for the funneral. I was at a large intersection on the way to the barber, I was to make a left and a young man was going to cross the street. I wrongfully made a wide turn around him. It was no where near him, technicly, I was wrong. He yelled out the vilest thing about me and my mother! His timeing was bad! I stopped the truck right there and got out and ran him down! I got close and seen he was younger than I thought as he had a wispy mustach. He yelled I aint 18 yet! I grabbed him by the mustach and pulled it and told him I didnt think he was going to make 18. I plucked his mustach two or three times trying to restrain myself, and he let me do it!
Usualy we are all young when those things happen. We arent always right either. It`s easy to brag what you would do until it happens to you. It`s more like what you wish you would do!
Didn't realize so many folks kept their tire iron in the front seat.
In NY some keep a Louisville slugger behind the front seat, you never know when a pickup baseball game might start.
In NY some keep a Louisville slugger behind the front seat, you never know when a pickup baseball game might start.
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michael thornton
Member
sounds to me like he was very lucky to go to jail!
joeintexas
US Veteran
If there was no weapon in the car I would think trying to evade the situation would be wise, if that was not possible take the fight away from the family. I always travel with a pistol in the truck and if I did get out to confront the jerk I would certainly have it HOT. In Texas you have a right to defend yourself if in a life threatening position and it seems like today there are more and more hotheads out there and roadrage is rampant. Case in point, right here in Abilene last month two guys in their 20s got into a argument over roadrage, both guys got out with guns, one is dead. So far, no charges have been filed either way. I am 61 years old and if someone comes at me with a tire iron I ain't gonna take no butt whipping!
Joe, I am a little older than you and I am not going to take a chance on getting a whipping. One case I worked back in 1967 had a man just hitting a guy up beside the temple with his fist. The man died and the assailant went to prison for manslaughter.
I am too old to take chances. If people leave me alone, I will leave them alone. I read recently that it took 37 muscles to frown and only 22 to smile but only three muscles to pull a trigger. At my age, I am tired of smiling and too old to be getting whippings.
I would stay in the car. Exit the area if possible. If I could not get away, and the BG struck my car. He has showed intent to harm and his butt belongs to me.
Concur. A vehicle is fairly good protection and a pretty good weapon if necessary. It's not a bad idea to always try to leave some maneuver room for yourself. If you stay back enough from the vehicle in front of you (or whatever) you have a fair chance of being able to extricate yourself.
The guy is a real poster child for CCW...
Concur. A vehicle is fairly good protection and a pretty good weapon if necessary. It's not a bad idea to always try to leave some maneuver room for yourself. If you stay back enough from the vehicle in front of you (or whatever) you have a fair chance of being able to extricate yourself.
The guy is a real poster child for CCW...
rte148
Member
2krkrider
Member
This was about 45 years ago in the NC mountains. We were on vacation, family camping in a VW Bug. My brother and I were in the back seat. Mom, 6 months pregnant was in front seat and Dad was driving. Just before dark we stopped to fill up and when we got back on the road it was just getting dark. A Caddy pulled up behind us and put the brights on us. After a few miles they passed us. In the car were four men. Mom says they were at the gas station when we fillled up. They sped off into the distance. A few miles later, as we rounded a curve, there was the Caddy, sideway blocking the road. The four were lined up, each holding a bat or some such. Hill on one side, air on the other with no room a little bug to get by. Daddy stopped, set the brakes, grabbed his P-38 and got out. Walking to the front of the car, he bent down, put the P-38 in the headlight, put a mag in and racked a round into the breech. He stood up, looked at the guys and told them they were going to move their car. One guy stepped forward, and suggested where Daddy could put his P-38. Daddy flew 32 missions in a B-17 over Europe and was on the Air Base pistol team. This was no big deal to him, just four stupid punks. With casual aim, Daddy put a round against the pavement about 2 feet in front of the guy, a spark flew off the pavement as it went between his legs and bounced into the side of the Caddy. With careful aim he drew a bead on the guy and told him the next one was going between his eyes. There was a mad scramble to get in the Caddy and head on down the road. Daddy watched them drive off, got back in the car and we headed down the road. Mom was worried that they would be waiting. Daddy said not a problem, the rest of the mag was more than enough to stop them with several rounds left over. He still doesn't like to waste ammo.
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Catshooter
Member
oldman,
I agree with you. Retreating is tough, I've got family in the car, can't go forward, I have not only no duty to retreat but can "stand my ground" here in Fl, from this data there's only one option.
Hop out of the car so I can get off the 'X'. With drawn and aimed .45, ok, now we can talk, maybe. But if he stays weird, shoot him until he changes shape or catches fire.
Get into a fight in a car seat with a seat belt on? 4000 pound missle? Guys, that tire iron will make very short work of your "protection" and can seriously injure or kill you with the same stroke.
Might want to think a bit more on some of these answers.
Cat
I agree with you. Retreating is tough, I've got family in the car, can't go forward, I have not only no duty to retreat but can "stand my ground" here in Fl, from this data there's only one option.
Hop out of the car so I can get off the 'X'. With drawn and aimed .45, ok, now we can talk, maybe. But if he stays weird, shoot him until he changes shape or catches fire.
Get into a fight in a car seat with a seat belt on? 4000 pound missle? Guys, that tire iron will make very short work of your "protection" and can seriously injure or kill you with the same stroke.
Might want to think a bit more on some of these answers.
Cat
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Chili Vega
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
I am in the "exit the vehicle" camp. I would rather deal with him standing than sitting in a car. This is predicated on retreating not being an option as stated in follow up posts. One strike from a tire iron can kill. Deadly force is usually justified when defending against death or seriously bodily harm (out here anyway). I think possible brain damage or blindness from shattered glass would qualify as serious bodily harm. If he came at me with said tire iron I would shoot.
m1gunner
US Veteran
If you haven't read it yet, read "The Gary Fadden incident - The Ayoob files".
We can't post links here, but you can search for it on findarticles. It is from The American Handgunner, Mar-Apr, 2004. By Massad Ayoob
An absolutely riveting article.
We can't post links here, but you can search for it on findarticles. It is from The American Handgunner, Mar-Apr, 2004. By Massad Ayoob
An absolutely riveting article.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
I know I wrote this story before, but many probley didnt see it. In the 1970s I was a guard on graveyard. I was on my way to work and was forced to the curb by two black gentilmen in a old car. I was in a uniform that was identical to the county sheriffs. I had on my gunbelt but no gun in my holster as we got them at work. I knew right away what these guys were up to and figuered I better come on strong. I had just turned on a bigger street than I lived on. It was about 23:45. I noticed a cars headlights turn on down the street a block away faceing me as soon as I made my left. The car slowly drifted over on my side the road and I had to get against a high curb and stop so as not hit the car. They then pulled up close to my door at a angle blocking any forward movement from me, but to where they could easily scratch out past me the direction I had come from.
I opened my door, got out and carefully kept my body turned to where they couldnt see that my holster was empty. I said something like "You two gentilmen sure made a mistake didnt you?" (I didnt really say gentilmen). Ha ha, we thought yo wuz somone else, ha ha, and they scratched out. Soon as I got to work I called LASO. (Los angeles co. sheriffs dept). I got shined on exactly like I knew I would. Sure, we will look into it, "citizen". Well they really didnt say "citizen",
When I got home the next day I found out that the neighbor kid who lived across the street from me was home on his first furlough. He was out running about sunup and it had to be the same two guys pulled over and tried to roll him, stabbing him in the process. Didnt kill him, thank God!
None of my storys answers the first post I know. The fact is there is never two situations alike. All the chest beating in the world cant take in account what you will or have to do on the spur of the moment for all the different factors that you may be faceing.
Here is yet another. I was about a 6 year old boy. It was durring or just after world war two. My mother ran a country general store by herself and didnt have a lot of choice but to let me roam at such a early age that in todays world she probley would be jailed for.
I was walking to a friends house about a mile or two away in the country. I was walking north and this old 37 chev coupe was headed south towards me. Two real rough looking guys stopped and said, kid, ya want a ride? With mom running the store I knew everyone in the country, but I didnt know these guys. I pointed at a farm house about a 100 yards up the road and said no, I live right here and made for the farm. They just drove off. Today I am 95% sure had I got in that car I probley would be dead!
I opened my door, got out and carefully kept my body turned to where they couldnt see that my holster was empty. I said something like "You two gentilmen sure made a mistake didnt you?" (I didnt really say gentilmen). Ha ha, we thought yo wuz somone else, ha ha, and they scratched out. Soon as I got to work I called LASO. (Los angeles co. sheriffs dept). I got shined on exactly like I knew I would. Sure, we will look into it, "citizen". Well they really didnt say "citizen",
When I got home the next day I found out that the neighbor kid who lived across the street from me was home on his first furlough. He was out running about sunup and it had to be the same two guys pulled over and tried to roll him, stabbing him in the process. Didnt kill him, thank God!
None of my storys answers the first post I know. The fact is there is never two situations alike. All the chest beating in the world cant take in account what you will or have to do on the spur of the moment for all the different factors that you may be faceing.
Here is yet another. I was about a 6 year old boy. It was durring or just after world war two. My mother ran a country general store by herself and didnt have a lot of choice but to let me roam at such a early age that in todays world she probley would be jailed for.
I was walking to a friends house about a mile or two away in the country. I was walking north and this old 37 chev coupe was headed south towards me. Two real rough looking guys stopped and said, kid, ya want a ride? With mom running the store I knew everyone in the country, but I didnt know these guys. I pointed at a farm house about a 100 yards up the road and said no, I live right here and made for the farm. They just drove off. Today I am 95% sure had I got in that car I probley would be dead!
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Between lancaster and victorville california is dessert. At night there is little traffic on the secondary roads. Due to my job I spent many nights alone in parts of that dessert. A lot of bad and some mysterious stuff happened. It was known as a dumping grounds for bodies murdered in los angles. There had been some robberies or rather hyjackings going on in a area near el mirage dry lake.
In 1985 a ventura county deputy was on his way home from vegas with his family and decided to take that lonely shortcut late one night. He came up on a old station wagon blocking the road sideways. He got out to see what the problem was. A black man threw down on him. The deputy pulled a gun out of ankle holster, shot and killed the robber. Nearby was a house with a light shineing. It was the only house in probley 5 or 6 miles every direction. The deputy went to it to use the phone. It turned out the guy he shot was the house owners son!
In 1985 a ventura county deputy was on his way home from vegas with his family and decided to take that lonely shortcut late one night. He came up on a old station wagon blocking the road sideways. He got out to see what the problem was. A black man threw down on him. The deputy pulled a gun out of ankle holster, shot and killed the robber. Nearby was a house with a light shineing. It was the only house in probley 5 or 6 miles every direction. The deputy went to it to use the phone. It turned out the guy he shot was the house owners son!
JcMack
Member
A lot of suggestions to retreat here. I don't advocate chest thumping or ridiculous displays of violence. However I'm fed up with retreating. 45 years of driving 200-300 miles a day and being involved in 100,000 road rage incidents, prompted me to retire early last year.
I do not advocate violence but I do not like to see people run from it either. Each time someone flees, the perp will gather more confidence for the next time. While we cannot go around killing off the perps, I refuse to be politically correct and turn my life over to them either.
The original post was made to let people consider what to do if in the same situation as the people in the case I worked last weekend. By tomorrow, I may have a good idea as to what set the perp off into his rage. I think it is going to be either personal problems of the day or either drug use.
This incident happened on a rural county road, well away from a populated area. However it could have just as easily happened inside any of our homes. We never know what we will face when we come home or what we will be opening our doors to once home. I do not feel the answer is to let people take what we have or bully us into submission by fear. Running away only opens the opportunity to have the same action taken on others.
If I am dressed, I have my sidearm on, either openly or concealed carried. If I go get a haircut, I have my gun on during the cut. Anywhere I go, a sidearm goes with me since I never know when or where something will happen. Yet it is also often best just to be a good witness but fleeing pretty much takes that away from the equasion. Do I want to kill someone? NO, not at all but then I do not want someone to kill me either. There has been decades of legislative and court fights to get the right to carry firearms but then if we are not going to use them to protect ourselves, why carry? A tire iron is just as deadly as a baseball bat, golf club or any other item. Had there been firearms introduced in the oringinal post, do you feel the perp would have continued his assault? Just having a second large male to deal with likely prompted him to retreat himself and attempt to run over his intended victims from the security of his truck.
Yet I have also seen cases where fleeing got someone hurt. There is no correct procedures manual in life. We make decisions based on what we feel to be proper at the time. In this case, the man was apprehended and all ended fairly well but it could have ended much worse. Many things are still unknown as to was this the first time the guy made agressive moves toward victims, what set him off and how far was he willing to go and for what reason.
The original post was made to let people consider what to do if in the same situation as the people in the case I worked last weekend. By tomorrow, I may have a good idea as to what set the perp off into his rage. I think it is going to be either personal problems of the day or either drug use.
This incident happened on a rural county road, well away from a populated area. However it could have just as easily happened inside any of our homes. We never know what we will face when we come home or what we will be opening our doors to once home. I do not feel the answer is to let people take what we have or bully us into submission by fear. Running away only opens the opportunity to have the same action taken on others.
If I am dressed, I have my sidearm on, either openly or concealed carried. If I go get a haircut, I have my gun on during the cut. Anywhere I go, a sidearm goes with me since I never know when or where something will happen. Yet it is also often best just to be a good witness but fleeing pretty much takes that away from the equasion. Do I want to kill someone? NO, not at all but then I do not want someone to kill me either. There has been decades of legislative and court fights to get the right to carry firearms but then if we are not going to use them to protect ourselves, why carry? A tire iron is just as deadly as a baseball bat, golf club or any other item. Had there been firearms introduced in the oringinal post, do you feel the perp would have continued his assault? Just having a second large male to deal with likely prompted him to retreat himself and attempt to run over his intended victims from the security of his truck.
Yet I have also seen cases where fleeing got someone hurt. There is no correct procedures manual in life. We make decisions based on what we feel to be proper at the time. In this case, the man was apprehended and all ended fairly well but it could have ended much worse. Many things are still unknown as to was this the first time the guy made agressive moves toward victims, what set him off and how far was he willing to go and for what reason.
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Yep, and lots of lessons to be learned.
I figure a Stevens 311 loaded with #6 shot and an old M&P "collectors item" revolver from 1953 loaded with wadcutter "target loads" is about as innocuous as vehicular self defense weaponry can be. And just about as effective. 'Specially the shotgun.
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