Your Spanish S&W copies - let's see 'em!

[Goony]

This one, in .38 Special caliber, was manufactured by N. Arizmendi y Cia of Eibar, and proudly marked "MADE IN SPAN" (really, not a typo on my part). Outwardly it strongly resembles an M&P from the 1920's. A very un-S&W deviation from that pattern is that it's a solid frame design (no sideplate). The only access to the action is via a removable triggerguard.

 

[cmort666]

I don't own any of these, but they and the Colt (and Pieper) copies are one of my favorite parts of the A.B. Zhuk book of line drawings of handguns.

There are tons of different variations on everything from side plates to cylinder latches.

A lot of them seem to have been .38 Long Colt rather than .38 Special, although supposedly a lot are bored straight through and will take Specials, although it's a bad idea to use them.

 

[Goony]

There are tons of different variations on everything from side plates to cylinder latches.

I can see how someone could get into collecting these, as it could be more interesting from a technical standpoint than just accumulating a bunch of the more common S&W's that are more alike than different. Plus, I imagine certain Spanish S&W copies are genuinely rare, both because in some instances they were made in cottage industry quantities, and also on account of their having tended to be discarded rather than repaired (lack of parts and economic incentive). Of course, there's probably no money in such a pursuit, which is why there isn't a SSWCCA.

Still, I'm surprised by the lack of response to this thread up to now. Nobody's got one of these to share, or is too embarrassed to admit to having one (or a bunch)?

 

[pilgrim6a]

I wish I still had this one or at least gotten pics. It was a .38 S&W top break DA. The markings were this.
SMILL & WELSON. SPRANGFELD MUS. Followed by the normal patent dates. The dates were all one digit off from a real S&W.

 

[350x]

Any known parts source for these?

I need a few

 

[walnutred]

I've had a few over they years with my favorites being the ones chambered in 8mm. Just none now to show pictures of.

 

[Goony]

I wish I still had this one or at least gotten pics. It was a .38 S&W top break DA. The markings were this.
SMILL & WELSON. SPRANGFELD MUS. Followed by the normal patent dates. The dates were all one digit off from a real S&W.

There is genre of S&W copy that was meant to deceive a person illiterate in English (or even the English alphabet) into thinking it was a genuine Smith & Wesson product. These were typically of Asian origin. A revolver of this nature is pictured in the thread: http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/200079-heres-one-ill-bet-youve-never-seen.html

The Spanish guns I'm referring to were generally marked properly with their makers' names, openly and legally trafficked, and while outwardly resembling S&W products (mostly the M&P, but also top break models and even the triple lock), generally did not infringe on S&W patents. It might be more accurate to term them as being Smith & Wesson "inspired" than as copies.

 

[cmort666]

I think there's a drawing of a virtually identical gun in the Zhuk book.

Any known parts source for these?

Your local machine shop... if you've got a broken part to copy. Doubtless more than the gun itself is worth.

 

[cmort666]

There is genre of S&W copy that was meant to deceive a person illiterate in English (or even the English alphabet) into thinking it was a genuine Smith & Wesson product. These were typically of Asian origin.

There's a similar genre of semi-auto pistols that were made in China before 1949. Some of them are copies of Browning M1900s, other guns, or frequently, a mishmash of design features. They were mostly handmade, and in job lot quantities for various Chinese warlord operations. A particular "army's" purchasing agent would give general guidelines for caliber, size, weight, magazine capacity and operating controls. Then some little shop would run off a batch of guns, roughly meeting the specification.

There are a BUNCH of them in the Zhuk book. There was a guy who once came to the Ohio Gun Collector's Association Show at the IX Center in Cleveland. He was a collector of these guns, and had a flier that used some of the drawings from the Zhuk book. He said that since nobody wanted them, they were dirt cheap, but since there were so MANY variations they were great fun to collect.

Pretty much the same comments apply to European copies of British "bulldog", "kobold" and similar pocket revolvers.

 

[Goony]

There's a similar genre of semi-auto pistols that were made in China before 1949. Some of them are copies of Browning M1900s...

I have one of these M1900 copies, I'll have to dig it out and get a photo of it.

 

[Goony]

This revolver appears to be pretty Colt-ish (yeah, the Spanish did takes on Sam's stuff, too).

Does it have a maker's name on it? Also, what caliber is it?

 

[350x]

32-20?

 

[cmort666]

I have one of these M1900 copies, I'll have to dig it out and get a photo of it.

Incidentally, the North Koreans made a copy of the M1900 in both regular and suppressed versions. They were current issue when I was in the ROK in '80-'81.

 

[linde]

One of the better quality made-in-Spain M&P copies was the ALFA . . . the tradename of Armero Especialistas Reunidas of Eibar, Spain circa 1920.

Here is a previous thread on the ALFA in 38 Long Colt . . . complete with pictures. Note the hybred Colt-S&W lockwork in post #14.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/145045-help-identify-alfa-revolver.html

Russ

 

[Goony]

Straying off-topic here, but...

Here's that likely Chinese copy of an FN Model 1900. The grips appear to be carved from buffalo horn. I've included a close-up of the goofy markings, consisting of a crudely rendered FN logo, underneath which the word NATIONALE appears twice. Above, that same word's repeated five times in a row. There's also some "proof marks" for good measure.

I'm still a bit perplexed by the lack of Spanish S&W copy pictures this thread has elicited. I thought every S&W collector would have at least one as a conversation piece....

 

[therevjay]

Sorry don't have a digital camera, and wouldn't know how to post a pic if I did.

But I do have a "Orbea" marked .38 Largo (I assume .38 long Colt) it seems to be quite well made. The backstrap is also stamped "Policia De La provencia De Buenos Aires"

 

[Goony]

Orbea Hermanos was an early and at one time premier Spanish manufacturer of sidearms.

Evidently yours was exported to Argentina. Wonder how it found ts way to the United States?

 

[therevjay]

Orbea Hermanos was an early and at one time premier Spanish manufacturer of sidearms.

Evidently yours was exported to Argentina. Wonder how it found ts way to the United States?

A few years ago there was a bunch advertised in "Shotgun news." I don't remember the price but it was less then $100 includeing s&h.

 

[Goony]

Here's an excellent webpage showing various Orbea Hermanos revolvers:

Orbea Hermanos

Really worth a look.

 

[Cyrano]

Drat! Last week I sold my two Mle 92 Espagnol revolvers, including a Trocala y Aranzabal, chambered for the 8mm French Mle 92 cartridge. I have a picture, but it's too big for a thumbnail. I had an Anitua and have a Cordero but they look like a Colt on the outside; they look like nothing else on earth on the inside.

 

[Cyrano]

Thanks to the good offices of Gooney, here's mine. He shrank it to thumbnail size for me. It's a Trocala y Aranzabal , one of the Spanish revolvers that France contracted for in WW I. It's in the 8mm French Mle 92 revolver caliber. There were a couple of makers who produced revolvers for France that looked like S&W M&Ps, at least on the outside. On the inside, they looked like nothing else on earth. I wish I had taken a picture of this one with the sideplate off. There were also a couple of makers who produced Colt look-alikes. Collectively France called them "Modèle 92 Espagnoles". Altogether they made almost 500,000 for France in WW I. France kept them in service, and they were used in WW II, both by the Milice (pro-Nazi militia), and the Maquis (guerillas). They were used until most of them were worn out or blown up. You don't see them very often.

The holster is one that France developed in WW I to replace the clamshell holster for the Mle 92 revolver. It also fits the Colt and S&W look-alikes. The squashed looking things on the front of the holster are three pouches to carry 8mm revolver ammo which was issued in 6 round packets. The packets are very hard to find.

 

[Goony]

Trocaola, Aranzabal y Cia also supplied top break revolvers in .455 Webley caliber to the British during WWI.

 

[shooboy]

Here ya go, total cost with a box of .32 longs was $50 ! Yes I shot it and then sold it to a member here. Pretty cool...... Shoo

 

[Goony]

That looks a lot like S&W's .32 Hand Ejector, and appears to be a product of Garate, Anitua y Cia, which, by the way, was another firm that was able to meet the strict quality standards set by the British and thus also furnish top-break .455's to the Allies' cause.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Well, here is mine -


Nickle is flakey, but underlieing Steel is smooth and nice.

Top Rib says "FOR 44 WINCHESTER CARTRIDGES"

Appears low miliage, but cosmetically challenged possibly from damp.


The single Word "SPAIN" is stamped very neatly on the front Grip Strap.


Monogramme of "OH" appears on the Stocks and on the right side of the Frame toward the rear area.


Sorry my images are not better, have not yet made a Light Box for this sort of thng.











I plan to load my own .44 WCF Cartridges for it and, take it out to the Range sometime soon.


Appears to be good quality in fit and what's left of original finish...Bore and Chambers show old still present rust ( I have just got it and not cleaned it yet, I sure hope it is not too badly pitted! We shall see )...


Were the large frame S&W-inspired Top Breaks of the "OH" Make well regarded?


Who would have used these, when chambered in the .44-40/.44 WCF? And when having their Text stampings in English?

Were these intended for the US Market of the time? Or..?



Kinda matches my old Zippo! Lol...

 

[Goony]

Oyeboteb -

That's another Orbea Hermanos - there's a link regarding this firm earlier in the thread. Your top break model most likely dates from the late 19th century, at a time when the company was supplying similar revolvers to the Spanish military.

 

[suthrnboy]

Spanish .38

I also have a Spanish made .38 that was my grandfathers that I would love to know more about. I was told that you guys on here were the authorities and could maybe help me on where to look for more info!

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Goony]

I also have a Spanish made .38 that was my grandfathers that I would love to know more about. I was told that you guys on here were the authorities and could maybe help me on where to look for more info!

Thanks,
Chris

Appreciate the photo, but could you tell us something about its markings?

 

[suthrnboy]

Spanish .38

Appreciate the photo, but could you tell us something about its markings?

Hi and thanks for the reply. There aren't really any other markings that I can see on the weapon outside of what I have already described!

Thanks!

 

[suthrnboy]

On the left side of the barrel it states "FOR 38 SW SPECIAL CTGS" and right behind the trigger guard on the bottom of the frame "SPAIN" is stamped into it. Other than that there are no other markings.

Thanks!