Reconsidering pepper spray

haywood said:
I always carry Pepper Spray. I was walking and a big dog came at me and started circling and growling. I tried yelling go home, with no effect. I like dogs and didn’t want to shoot someone’s pet. I tried to walk away slowly but he kept circling and growling. I had never used Pepper Spray before. It was a hot breezy day and I pointed it at the dog about 15 feet at the most away. It came out in a strong straight stream. It went right over his head. I thought darn I missed. Before I had a chance to shoot again he started sneezing. His eyes started to get big and wide then he started blinking and sneezing. No more nasty dog. He just sat down and I got out of there. If it works that well with a miss it should work good with a direct hit.
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Unfortunately, there are also many times where it is not effective against dogs, as well. So, don't feel overconfident in regard to its effectiveness. (Though I applaud your decision...I am the same when it comes to dogs, by and large. I love mine and try to treat others well.)

Funny anecdote...

A friend on another forum said that when he got in a tangle with an aggressive dog, the thing that worked was when he sprayed the dog's butt.

Apparently it lit a fire under its *** and that was enough to end the scrum.
 
I like ****** pepper blaster II. A two shot blaster, the gel travels 110 mph (13 feet), unaffected by temperature, wind, or the rain. Will not blowback in your face on a windy day. Have not used it except for practicing with an expired blaster (5-year expiration date). YouTube has some videos of idiots volunteering to be tested with it (too funny).
 
Good Post mckenney99!
Thanks VictorLouis for your post! Anyone using that device is asking for a Law suite. Why would a Police Department even consider it? JMO (comments welcome).
The Kimber Pepper Blaster is another item asking for a Law suite. Spray at 112 Mph and only 2 shots! Up close you could possibly blind someone and if you miss (you already committed assault), you are now the aggressor and you really p——d someone off. JMO (comments welcome).
I carry Pepper Wildfire 18%. 6-8 one second shots. Effective range 8-10ft (works great on attacking dogs, ask how I know) and a 4” knife when working outside around the house (Maybe a snub nose Taurus 856 UL 38, you never know)!
When off property, a S&W.

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
 

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blues7 said:
Unfortunately, there are also many times where it is not effective against dogs, as well. So, don't feel overconfident in regard to its effectiveness. (Though I applaud your decision...I am the same when it comes to dogs, by and large. I love mine and try to treat others well.)

Funny anecdote...

A friend on another forum said that when he got in a tangle with an aggressive dog, the thing that worked was when he sprayed the dog's butt.

Apparently it lit a fire under its *** and that was enough to end the scrum.
Click to expand...

The pepper spray comes first. It worked. If it doesn’t. One of Two carry guns will be tried next.
 
Rudi said:
I have been looking at pepper gel, less chance to get it on you.
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until they go to cover their face and catch the gel/foam in their hands and throw it back at you. Ya I know it sounds like Hollywood bs yet saw it happen, the end result was every one got maced as normal. I have watched mace fail to slow em down let alone stop em too often to put much stock in it. On the other hand it's better than a harsh look.
 
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I can't remember which he was, a Fed or a State Police Leo, who told me, ahem, as a general rule the darker the complexion the less effective pepper spray was. Which is why it's nice to have spray and shock as options. This was several years ago, when this was a less lethal conversation to have, career wise.
 
mckenney99 said:
I am reconsidering adding pepper spray to my carry equipment when I leave the house.
Having retired from LE but still living in the same town where I was stationed, I have always considered the possibility of a confrontation with an old suspect/defendant as a possibility.
However with today's current climate, some other folks seem to have become emboldened to challenge everyone for some perceived wrong.
Now being retired, I recognize that I no longer have a need to interact with these people and I will go out of my way to avoid them but some of the confrontations we are seeing, these idiots just will not take no, go away, for an answer.
No, I do not frequent bars or spots normally associated with less than civilized behavior, but that doesn't seem to matter any more. You are just as likely to be accosted in the grocery parking lot or at the gas pumps.
I am rapidly approaching my 62nd birthday and never was much of a boxer/fighter, (in the academy, during boxing week, an instructor noted that I could take a punch . . . lots of them). I can now envision a greater need to have a non-lethal option at my disposal.
I am always armed when it is permissible, so that is covered but it feels like having a non-lethal option might be prudent until things calm down.
Yes, I do carry a cell phone and will call proper authorities but I do not want to be looking at a phone when the threat is already closing the distance.
Any thoughts, suggestions?
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I completely agree with this. The scumbag anarchists of today will more likely need an attitude adjustment with OC spray than to get shot, so I've also started carrying OC spray every day. If that doesn't work, or a hostile crowd forms, you can always go to the firearm at that point.

As to aggressive big dogs, IMHO they get shot. There's no reason to screw around with that, and you're not going to end up in prison for shooting it (in the vast majority of places where you're carrying legally).
 
mckenney99 said:
I am reconsidering adding pepper spray to my carry equipment when I leave the house.
Having retired from LE but still living in the same town where I was stationed, I have always considered the possibility of a confrontation with an old suspect/defendant as a possibility.
However with today's current climate, some other folks seem to have become emboldened to challenge everyone for some perceived wrong.
Now being retired, I recognize that I no longer have a need to interact with these people and I will go out of my way to avoid them but some of the confrontations we are seeing, these idiots just will not take no, go away, for an answer.
No, I do not frequent bars or spots normally associated with less than civilized behavior, but that doesn't seem to matter any more. You are just as likely to be accosted in the grocery parking lot or at the gas pumps.
I am rapidly approaching my 62nd birthday and never was much of a boxer/fighter, (in the academy, during boxing week, an instructor noted that I could take a punch . . . lots of them). I can now envision a greater need to have a non-lethal option at my disposal.
I am always armed when it is permissible, so that is covered but it feels like having a non-lethal option might be prudent until things calm down.
Yes, I do carry a cell phone and will call proper authorities but I do not want to be looking at a phone when the threat is already closing the distance.
Any thoughts, suggestions?
Click to expand...

Read this then thought about it then ordered for me and the wife. Thanks for a different yet effective approach
 
stepnez said:
Read this then thought about it then ordered for me and the wife. Thanks for a different yet effective approach
Click to expand...

When I did this, I ordered an extra one that we could practice with. Not on each other! I wanted her to have a feel for the mechanism and to see how the spray actually came out.
 
Pepper spray is tool with mixed effectiveness. I know a lot of competent cops who ended up in the hospital using pepper spray (per training/policy). They had successful to-the-face deployments on bad guys, but the bad guys decided not to quit fighting. Today, most of my local agencies rarely ever use pepper spray or batons outside of riots and the TASER is the 90% solution. (TASERs seem to have a much higher likelihood of working, but still aren’t infallible)

I also can think of at least two dogs shot by officers when pepper spray didn’t deter Cujo. Dogs learn, either to avoid pepper spray or that they can fight through it too. If hitting a person is hard, trying getting a good deployment on an attacking dog.

The FBI has never issued pepper spray to my knowledge. Maybe one of the past/serving agents can correct me, but that is also a clue if the DOJ won’t issue it.

That all said, I have pepper spray at close hand in my vehicles. I also sometimes carry pepper on my body, but always as an adjunct to a striking device. Pepper spray is a tricky item to deploy and has a strong psychological impact, but that can be way overstated and likely to fail when needed most.
 
VictorLouis: The one on the left is a M&P Bodyguard 380 (with Precision One 90gr XTP bullets).
The one on the right is a M&P 9mm EZ ( with 124 gr HST bullets or Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P). Both carried AIWB in Vedder holsters.
One or the other is my away from home carry.

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
 
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I don’t think pepper spray is necessarily a good idea.
If one or more people are coming toward you and refuse your commands to stop or back off and there is no option for you to get away from or de-escalate the situation, you should probably be in fear for your life.
An aggressor can cover 21’ in one second. The last thing (if I am in fear for my life with NO options for escape) I want to do is pull out a can of pepper spray/mace and hope it stops the attack. You have NO time for a second
option. You have only one chance to save your life. Ergo, the gun should
be out and ready to shoot if that’s the only option. Period!! JMO

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
 
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HardToHandle said:
The FBI has never issued pepper spray to my knowledge. Maybe one of the past/serving agents can correct me, but that is also a clue if the DOJ won’t issue it.
Click to expand...

I was an FBI SA and we were issued pepper spray as far back as 1991, but weren’t required to carry it. I think they issued it so the Academy guys could experience the pure joy of spraying us with it. They sprayed me again when I went back for Firearms Instructor school.

The only time I used it on a person was to get a big naked guy out of a closet. It worked great for that.

I used it on rez dogs with mixed success. I gave it up when a canister exploded in my hot car. We were explicitly told not to leave it in the car, but I figured - what could happen?

After that I went to an ASP baton for rez dogs. Just snapping it open worked most of the time. Shooting dogs generates bad will and tons of paperwork. I’ve had to do it and it sucks. I like dogs.
 
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Execpro said:
I don’t think pepper spray is necessarily a good idea.
If one or more people are coming toward you and refuse your commands to stop or back off and there is no option for you to get away from or de-escalate the situation, you should probably be in fear for your life.
An aggressor can cover 21’ in one second. The last thing (if I am in fear for my life with NO options for escape) I want to do is pull out a can of pepper spray/mace and hope it stops the attack. You have NO time for a second
option. You have only one chance to save your life. Ergo, the gun should
be out and ready to shoot if that’s the only option. Period!! JMO

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
Click to expand...

In that case, it's not the pepper spray, but not knowing what level of force to use. Being in that situation and having pepper spray doesn't mean you have to use it. You can go straight to the gun if that's justified.

Which brings up another issue. If you're going to carry pepper spray and a gun, you better practice with both and know which tool to use under which circumstances.
 
Execpro said:
I don’t think pepper spray is necessarily a good idea.
If one or more people are coming toward you and refuse your commands to stop or back off and there is no option for you to get away from or de-escalate the situation, you should probably be in fear for your life.
An aggressor can cover 21’ in one second. The last thing (if I am in fear for my life with NO options for escape) I want to do is pull out a can of pepper spray/mace and hope it stops the attack. You have NO time for a second
option. You have only one chance to save your life. Ergo, the gun should
be out and ready to shoot if that’s the only option. Period!! JMO

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
Click to expand...

As ContinentalOp said, it really does depend on the situation.

If you are a 200 pound fit male being accosted by a similar aggressive male who isn't displaying a weapon and you shoot him, you better be prepared to spend a good chunk of your life behind bars. That just is what it is.

On the other hand, if it's multiple aggressors, or there's a big difference in the parties of a one-on-one (a fit 20-something attacking an overweight 60-something), then that changes the argument that going to lethal force immediately could be justified.
 
I'm a relatively fit 68 year old man who recently had his back introduce him to sciatica, leaving me somewhat less than mobile. I use a cane to get around, but all my military and security combat hand-to-hand training is out the freaking window. On the plus side, I have had combat cane training so if I don't fall down I may be able to keep most dogs off me. Situational awareness and a couple of guns are pretty much what I have to keep me safe. If I were going to use OC, I'd use the portable fire extinguisher-sized bear spray with the stream nozzle.

As for the Kimber gizmo, my brother gave one to my late mother and showed her how to use it since she was terrified of guns. After mom passed, my sisters were going through her stuff, and one of them found it. She asked, "What's this?" pointed it at her face, and pulled the trigger. My brother was alerted to her misadventure by her screams and my other sisters shouts. It took most of a gallon of milk to ease the pain, but she did have a nice red mark in the middle of her forehead. My brother had a tough time telling me this because he kept cracking up. "Why did you do that?" he said he asked her. Her response was, "I didn't know what it was!" "So,...you pointed it at your face and pulled the trigger?" She may still be pissed off about that.
 
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I never leave home without it.

Usually a Sabre Red H20 Unit such as the MK6, on occasion larger models. MC’s(Major Capsaicinoids) is the key to potency and effectiveness and you want a level III spray preferable with 1.33% MC’s.

First Defense Def-Tec came out with 1.33% units fairly recently, but they are oil based, which in my opinion are less desirable. The reason being is they don’t really work any better, but are more difficult to decon. That matters because there is a good chance you’ll get it on you in an actual fight and present less of a problem in case of accidental discharge.

Stream is also preferred IMO for outdoor use due to greater range and less potential for wind blowback and a flip-top is best for safe carry and quick and positive activation.

POM industries have come out with some very compact flip-top 1.33% MC’s water-based units which have received the endorsement of some very well respected instructors like Chuck Haggard, John Murphy and Greg Ellifritz. I recently purchased a couple for carry when I need something really small. I haven’t really had them long enough to determine long term durability, but the form factor is fantastic.
 
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