Questions for the NY-1 Crowd and Collectors of NYPD Guns Generally . . .

[Denver Dick]

In an article by R. M. Vivas printed in the SCSW 3rd Edition, it is noted that the 60 NY-1 was “made available in the summer of 1987 and by late 1988 was withdrawn from service.” Mr. Vivas notes that in 1988 “a series of problems” arose. It is my understanding that the bobbed hammer that came on the 60 NY-1 was too light (low mass) and did not provide 100% reliability in popping the primer. Notwithstanding the intervention of S&W armorers, “some problems continued and the guns were removed from the authorized weapons list” in late 1988. Again, according to Mr. Vivas, the guns left in the Equipment Bureau (1,253 units) that had not been sold to individual officers were returned to S&W on June 23, 1989." It is believed the revolvers returned to S&W were modified from DAO to SA/DA and resold commercially.

When I recently purchased a Model 60-2 NY-1 (http://smith-wessonforum.com/showthread.php?t=91472), I figured it was one of the 1,253 that were returned to S&W in June of 1989. So, when I sent my letter request to Roy Jinks, I specifically asked if the revolver was one of the 1,253 returned units. When I got the factory letter below, I immediately skipped to the line that says the revolver had never been returned to S&W. I figured, well, somewhere along the way it had a replacement hammer installed. However, after I read the rest of the paragraph unique to my revolver, I noted that it was originally shipped to New York City Police Equipment Bureau on October 17, 1989.

Wait a minute, why would the Equipment Bureau be receiving a new 60 NY-1 almost a year after they had been de-authorized and four months after returning all their remaining stock to S&W? Now I’m beginning to wonder if the SA/DA hammer is original to the revolver, but then again I thought the Equipment Bureau ordered DAO for sale to the officers at that time.

Any thoughts from the NY-1 or NYPD collectors out there?

 

[NOTREDAME]

Just a bump to the top to match it up with the other post.

Nice gun by the way.

 

[Denver Dick]

Thanks for the bump, Nortredame. I thought there were a bunch of NYPD collectors out there who would chime in on this one.

 

[sal1911a1]

Range

The Range is located at Rodman's neck Bronx NY, not Randalls Island
I hope this helps, I will stop by the range and say hi

I have just picked up in mint shape a 64 4" and a 64 3"

My NY-1 collection is growing fast with all my friends retiring

 

[ladder13]

I stand corrected Sal, too busy trying to type before thinking. City Island to be specific.
Ya think a Throggs Neck boy woulda got that right first time.

Since we're talkin' NY-1's:

 

[Denver Dick]

Mike: I placed a PM for BigBoku, thanks.

Mike and Sal: Out here the LAPD directly obtains the firearms it issues to its officers such as Berettas and now Glocks. In addition to issued weapons, officers are allowed to carry other authorized weapons. Usually, the officers will obtain their authorized weapons through the Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club (LAPRAAC) located on the grounds of the Police Academy. Officers may also purchase other non-authorized firearms through LAPRAAC. I'm wondering if the Equipment Bureau operated that way, i.e., could NYPD officers order/obtain other non-authorized firearms for their personal use through the Equipment Bureau?

 

[sal1911a1]

no

The short answer is no, the equipment section only sell Glocks, etc
guns used and authorized by NYPD.

But any mos (Member of the service, Officers etc) could purchase anything you want at any gun shop or dealer, example any 1911's other auto's

The sad thing you can't carry them on duty, now off duty is another topic for another time

Ladder 13 I love your pics, I have the same and love them very much,

I don't have any chiefs or 5 shots, I never had any use for them

I have model 64's handy 3" and 4" they work great with my safariland speed loaders CompII on patrol or off duty before autos

 

[Denver Dick]

Sal1911a wrote:

The short answer is no, the equipment section only sell Glocks, etc
guns used and authorized by NYPD.

Thanks, Sal. It's just with a ship date from S&W to NYPD Equipment Bureau of late 1989, almost a year after the 60 NY-1 was de-authorized, it doesn't seem to make sense. But hey, that happens sometimes when collecting S&Ws.

Mike: Don't worry about hi-jacking the thread with photos . . . as you noted above, we love photos.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Mr. Vivas notes that in 1988 “a series of problems” arose. It is my understanding that the bobbed hammer that came on the 60 NY-1 was too light (low mass) and did not provide 100% reliability in popping the primer.

That's not my understanding at all, based on a post here a few years ago by Bob Vivas. I don't think that there was EVER a problem popping primers with the M60 NY-1. Where there was a problem was with the engineers WORRYING about popping primers. Prompted by SAAMI specs, they went for a stronger mainspring. This made the size of the hammer stud (hammer pin) hole in the sideplate more critical. Even with all sideplates inspected after a recall, there were still sometimes severe functional problems from the increased mainspring weight. Eventually the repeated problems caused the NYPD Firearms Unit to nix the purchase. It is my understanding that the Firearms Unit experimented with a large number of 36's and experienced what I have experienced with a much smaller number of guns, both J & K: bobbing the hammer and changing nothing else does not reduce reliability of the gun.

Don't know if Bob Vivas still posts here. I believe that you could get the above synopsis confirmed by RichCapeCod, who was there at the time.

 

[BigBoku]

Model520fan is correct the hammer stud hole in the sideplate was the problem on the NY-1 Model 60's S&W inspected each of the guns at the range and if the gun was found to be within spec they stamped the inside of the frame above the yoke with a silhoutte target.

If your gun has that stamp above the NY-1 than it was one of the guns that was in the NYPD inventory. Before the changeover to the new forum R.M. Vivas has a great article on the S&W NY-1 Model 60's but I can't seem to locate it.

Hope this helps..........and FYI The NY-1 Model 60 was replaced with the S&W 640 which were not marked NY-1 on the guyn itself.

 

[RET_NYPD_MOS]

Clarufication on the 1988 recall.

CLARIFICATION should be the header - sorry!

I was in the first class that was authorized to purchase this firearm.
After graduating the academy in 1988 we ran to purchase these for off-duty use. Since we were only allowed to use this or our service revolver (mine is a Ruger Police Six S/S spurless .38) off-duty this was the logical choice. The rush was outrageous for these; my class graduated around 2200 officers.
Within the year we were ordered to cease from carrying them and the department was doing a recall for inspection of each firearm. The problem that was found to be defective was the floating firing pin that was found in a scarce few to be breaking.
Mine was returned a few months later into 1989, and once again we were allowed to carry them. Lo' and behold a department directive was issued for us to permanently to cease from carrying the weapon. An offer to replace the spurless hammer with a regular hammer was made to us by the Firearms Training Unit - however since our class was the first to carry spurless .38's we would not be allowed to use them for off duty, but merely for our own personal target practice use.
I found this ridiculous, I opted to keep my spurless M-60 - and to this day, 21-years after I purchased it, it fires fine with no problems.
This is the factual information - if anyone wants pictures of the firearm, as well as a close-up of the firing pin, just let me know, I'll be more than happy to supply you with it.

 

[RET_NYPD_MOS]

Photo's

Best I can do with my camera - I tried to get into the NY-1 MOD 60 Stamp as best I could. You can also see the firing pin we have been referring to - again this firearm had not been altered in anyway from the Firearms Training Unit at Rodmans Neck. A few of the gunsmiths actually wanted to buy it from me - NO WAY.

 

[MTS Cop]

The thing to remember about NYPD guns is they really aren't the NYPD's guns. Guns are the personal property of the individual officer. So if tomorrow they decide the 3914DAO is no longer authorized, I can keep mine because I bought it myself. I'm no longer authorized to carry it, but I can keep it for recreational purposes. So it's entirely possible and even common for unauthorized guns to stay in its original form in the possession of an officer.

 

[perpster]

The thing to remember about NYPD guns is they really aren't the NYPD's guns. Guns are the personal property of the individual officer. So if tomorrow they decide the 3914DAO is no longer authorized, I can keep mine because I bought it myself. I'm no longer authorized to carry it, but I can keep it for recreational purposes. So it's entirely possible and even common for unauthorized guns to stay in its original form in the possession of an officer.

One of the nicest things about retiring from NYPD is being able to carry whatever you feel like whenever you feel like. For me that's most often a .357 scandium model. One with and one without a hammer spur.

 

[tripledipper]

I bought my son (10/90 class) his O/D gun which was a 640 SS bobbed centennial in .38sp. and he is still carrying it.

 

[Denver Dick]

RET_NYPD_MOS:

Your timeline is interesting but raises a question.

What I thought was interesting about my NY-1 is that it was shipped from S&W on October 17, 1989. At that point, it sounds like the revolver was no longer authorized for off duty carry. Which begs the question, why would the Equipment Bureau still be getting them in from S&W. Maybe mine got the "regular" hammer from the Firearms Training Unit like you describe in your posting. However, I just wonder if by mid October 1989, they were having the remainder of the order shipped with "regular" hammers.

 

[RET_NYPD_MOS]

RET_NYPD_MOS:

Your timeline is interesting but raises a question.

What I thought was interesting about my NY-1 is that it was shipped from S&W on October 17, 1989. At that point, it sounds like the revolver was no longer authorized for off duty carry. Which begs the question, why would the Equipment Bureau still be getting them in from S&W. Maybe mine got the "regular" hammer from the Firearms Training Unit like you describe in your posting. However, I just wonder if by mid October 1989, they were having the remainder of the order shipped with "regular" hammers.

The equipment section in 1989 started receiving the "Centennial" edition from S&W (internal hammer) - waited for the authorization to start again for the Model 60, and knowing what a scam the contract system is with manuf. and the chiefs at purchasing I held on to little hope. I left the NYPD for a stint in Florida in the first portion of 1990 - at that time the offer was made for us to have spurred hammers put on, or leave the spurless on - but either way - you weren't authorized to carry it. A reimbursement was also offered, and “discount” coupons from S&W were to come along with the reimbursement. The idea was that those who got screwed into this deal would then purchase the Centennial - since I came back in late 1990 the off of reimbursement was off the table to me.
This meant that legally you could carry it, but if you did and got “involved” you were looking at departmental trial room - not a good thing.
I took my chances and carried it when I returned back to the NYPD at the end of 1990 - it worked great on my ankle. I didn't buy another off-duty until 2000 when we were authorized to carry Glock 26 - that's what I got.
It sounds to me that there is a bit of confusion coming from either the NYPD Equipment Section of S&W as it pertains to a shipment in October 1989 for the equipment section resale purposes. These may have either been inadvertently sent, the repaired/inspected weapons being sent back, or replacement for those with defects, and perhaps there were the Centennials being sent.
In Oct 1989 this was the height of the department recall. So is it possible that the bureaucrats in the city were still taking delivery of these weapons, sure - but they weren't being sold to personnel.

Today at a gun show, I showed the Model 60 to an "Expert" - who have me a history about the Model 60 I had - he was wrong about everything. I smiled, took my firearm and walked away.

 

[Rich S]

didn't other people than just NYPD officers get to buy guns from the NYPD equipment bureau? like fireguys and ADA's and feds? anyhow if one of these "Other" purchasers ordered a M-60 it seems that S&W could possibly send them one of the returned guns and then it would letter as sent to NYPD but after it was removed from the approved list for the NYPD....maybe?
Regards,
Rich

 

[RET_NYPD_MOS]

No - Equoiment section purchases were for just MOS (Members of the Service - NYPD term for its sworn employees) - what happens is once a firearm is authorized you may purchase it from a licensed store. These firearms were not available to these stores - on the NYPD Equipment section at One Police Plaza - whereas we had to call before coming down just to make sure stock of the firearms, or even any equipment was available for purchase - that's right we had to buy ALL of our equipment, even the pin that held on our shield. Being in highway myself, that got rather expensive.

 

[Sgt 127]

Since we were only allowed to use this or our service revolver (mine is a Ruger Police Six S/S spurless .38) off-duty this was the logical choice.

I bought this from an NYPD Officer. Its interesting in that it has the full hammer. The guy I bought it from was not a gun guy, so, I don't think he had it converted back over. He said at "Gun Day" at the academy, they had the Smiths and the Rugers. He said he picked the biggest one possible as he is a big guy. He originally had a massive set of Pachmyers on it, but had the brand new factory grips to go with it. It letters as an NYPD gun. (I know its a Ruger, but, the title says NYPD Guns Generally!)

From my wandering around on the Ruger Forum, the NYPD Rugers are the rarest of them as the Smiths were considerably more popular. And, all the confirmed NYPD Rugers have a start stamp in the crane. The belief is they were stamped that way by the firearms unit when they passed initial inspection.