f8 crusader
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38spl Ammo...Why So Much Junk?
- Thread starter amd6547
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JC4013
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Aw tpd, don't ya'll know these kids don't know nothing but these corn shuckers that spit back at ya? Good 'ol fashioned hot lead's not part of their vocabulary. Sometimes accuracy isn't either. That's why they want lots of bullets. Okay, I haven't been here long enough to carry on the sarcasim too much. The dwindling ammunition choices were a factor in switching to the 4013, though I still miss that long smooth pull of a good K-frame. It's worth remembering that the FBI got aaway from the FBI load not because it failed to perform, but because they wanted more bullets and hoped they would perform better.
...And the ammo companies are flat-out ripping us off.
One of my favorite examples is Remington 30 carbine ammo. This ammo Remington has been making since WWII. The standard 110gn FMJ load sells for $25/50rds. Their 110gn SP load jumps to $40-$50!...Just to change from an FMJ to a low-tech soft point, which again, has been made for six decades.
One of my favorite examples is Remington 30 carbine ammo. This ammo Remington has been making since WWII. The standard 110gn FMJ load sells for $25/50rds. Their 110gn SP load jumps to $40-$50!...Just to change from an FMJ to a low-tech soft point, which again, has been made for six decades.
bmcgilvray
Member
Sorry Wayne, late back to this party. Both the round nose and semi-wadcutter bullets were launched with 4.8 grains of Unique, giving 858 fps from a 4-inch Model 10.
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Ammo makers are going to produce what sells fast enough to turn a profit--period.
The .38 Special has fallen out of favor as a SD round (totally ineffective and never stopped anyone, yeah right), therefore sales have fallen off. Why set up a line of machinery to sell a few .38s when that machinery can produce 9mms that sell like hotcakes? Simple supply and demand. Produce a few for high costs, or produce many at a lower cost.
Reloads for SD? You betcha! What reliability problems? I read far, far, far more posts about someone's new handgun not feeding brand (insert the name brand of choice here) than someone having problems with reloads. In my long lifetime of reloading, I've had one (1) misfire due to a defective primer (that could have been shipped to an ammo factory just as easily) and one shotshell that fizzled due to water intrusion. I've had many more "factory" misfires. I don't know how much powder or what type the factory uses. I know exactly what powder and how much in is my reloads; every round is visually inspected. Can any ammo maker truefully claim that?
I think the "reloads" in court is an overblown internet myth. Would you rather have the jury hear you fired a reloaded round, loaded with commonly available commercial primer, powder and bullets, typically at less than max loads, or would you rather have them hear you used a commercial SD rounds specifically designed for "maximun penetration and expansion"? I'll take my chances with reloads.
The .38 Special has fallen out of favor as a SD round (totally ineffective and never stopped anyone, yeah right), therefore sales have fallen off. Why set up a line of machinery to sell a few .38s when that machinery can produce 9mms that sell like hotcakes? Simple supply and demand. Produce a few for high costs, or produce many at a lower cost.
Reloads for SD? You betcha! What reliability problems? I read far, far, far more posts about someone's new handgun not feeding brand (insert the name brand of choice here) than someone having problems with reloads. In my long lifetime of reloading, I've had one (1) misfire due to a defective primer (that could have been shipped to an ammo factory just as easily) and one shotshell that fizzled due to water intrusion. I've had many more "factory" misfires. I don't know how much powder or what type the factory uses. I know exactly what powder and how much in is my reloads; every round is visually inspected. Can any ammo maker truefully claim that?
I think the "reloads" in court is an overblown internet myth. Would you rather have the jury hear you fired a reloaded round, loaded with commonly available commercial primer, powder and bullets, typically at less than max loads, or would you rather have them hear you used a commercial SD rounds specifically designed for "maximun penetration and expansion"? I'll take my chances with reloads.
Actually, with the popularity of the lightweight revolvers and the increases in CCW's, .38 Special is definitely in "favor". There are several loads that have been introduced in recent years that greatly improved the performance of .38's, especially in the short barrels.
Concerning reloads, it's true that someone who takes care, uses good equipment and components, and knows what they're doing, can make ammo that will be as reliable as factory. You may visually inspect every round, (some companies do the same with their defense ammo), but you likely don't have the laser and computer photographic sensors, used by the some of the larger companies to spot defects. Despite horror stories of malfunctioning ammo, (many of which can be traced to gun issues rather than ammo), today's factory stuff is very, very good. They also use bullets and flash suppressed powders, not always easily available to home brewers.
As far as liability issues, if the ammo you're using is widely used by police, it will be hard for anyone to argue you chose something for it's "cruel" or "deadly" effects.
There's no right or wrong answer. What ammo you used is unlikely to be a major issue if you are justified in using deadly force. But I've been involved in the legal aftermath of shootings a number of times, and for me, I choose to eliminate as many potential things a civil attorney could raise, to try and convince a jury of 12 licensed drivers to give my house away to a crook's family.
washburn832
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Out of a 2" barrel you are not going to get much extra velocity with these light fast rounds. You're just be burning powder outside the barrel and creating more flash and noise. The two inch revolver has some limitations but they really don't stop it from being a good self defense weapon. Personally, I'd just carry wadcutters in it. They are seriously nasty on human beings at close range.
"Ripping us off"?
Like any other business, companies will charge as much as they can for their products. If you own stock, you sure as heck want them to. In your example, how many .30 carbine users would buy soft points, even if they were only 10% more than ball, just to plink away at tin cans or rocks in the desert? It's a tiny market, probably far less than 1% of the total carbine rounds sold, and the prices reflect it. They have to justify setting a line up to run them, instead of the better selling ball rounds, and then inventorying them. They price them at a level they've determined those who want them will pay. If they weren't selling at those prices, they would likely pull them from their catalogs, as they've done with a lot of other less popular rounds. If there were a large market for .30 carbine soft points at a lower price point, one of the majors would probably already have done it, followed by the others. That's the free market at work.
Randy Garrett charges two bucks a round for his .44 mag ammo, and four bucks a shot (and more..), for his 45-70's. Is he "ripping people off"? No, he's charging what the limited market will bear for his product. I have friends that know him, and he's not exactly getting rich from his business. It's a small, niche market. Would I like to buy it a lot cheaper? Sure. But I'm glad he's in business, so when I wanted some of the best ammo made, I could buy it.
.38 wadcutters penetrate deeply, and their sharp shoulder cuts tissue, instead of just passing though. They don't kick, and they're not loud or smokey to practice with. The late Gene Wolberg, who did much of the work validating the current testing methods for the performance of bullets on living tissue, used to recommend them for self defense. He'd seen lots of shootings involving them. They're a lot better choice than some of the whiz bang esoteric ammo sold today.
Wayne Dobbs
Member
Thanks for that information.
Well, back to my 30 carbine example, the market is large enough that magtech and PrviPartizan are importing both FMJ and SP loads in that caliber. Somehow, they are able sell their SP load for only a couple bucks more than the FMJ load. My money goes to Prvi Partizan rather than Remington.
I was just looking at an ad for Remington components, and surprise, the FMJ and SP bullets for the 30 carbine sell for the exact same amount.
CMP has sold thousands of GI carbines in the last few years (including my own!), and the carbine is still popular enough for Kahr to make a copy. Most of the carbine shooters I know skip the Remington load and get the imports. It is a simple formula. Lower price, sell more, raise price and see your buisness undercut by imports.
Now, as to 38spl...Aguila makes a good shooting 158gn JHP which sells at a reasonable price. Again, my money goes overseas while all I can find online is RNL or 130gn FMJ, or ridiculously expensive magic bullets. All I want are two loads at a reasonable price. A 158gn SWCHP +P, and a 158gn SCW +P.
I was just looking at an ad for Remington components, and surprise, the FMJ and SP bullets for the 30 carbine sell for the exact same amount.
CMP has sold thousands of GI carbines in the last few years (including my own!), and the carbine is still popular enough for Kahr to make a copy. Most of the carbine shooters I know skip the Remington load and get the imports. It is a simple formula. Lower price, sell more, raise price and see your buisness undercut by imports.
Now, as to 38spl...Aguila makes a good shooting 158gn JHP which sells at a reasonable price. Again, my money goes overseas while all I can find online is RNL or 130gn FMJ, or ridiculously expensive magic bullets. All I want are two loads at a reasonable price. A 158gn SWCHP +P, and a 158gn SCW +P.
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bmcgilvray
Member
Whoops Wayne; Got that velocity information way wrong. The load checks out to 858 fps.
Foreign ammo companies have been competing in the US market for years, which is great. If the US companies don't step up to the plate and lose market share, then they deserve to lose it. Knowing a lot of the folks in the industry though, I'm sure they're aware of the competition's pricing. Just looking at Midway's site, I see that both Remington and Federal's .30 carbine ball is the same price as Prvi Partizan's, even though I'm pretty sure production and labor cost's are a bit cheaper in Serbia. I'm still guessing they're being competitive where they think they have to be, and trying to make their margin where they can, just like any good company does. If you look at the annual reports for Winchester or Federal/CCI for the last few years, their sales don't seem to be suffering.
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I am not a cowboy action shooter, but I have seen the prices of these seriously reduced loads they make for that sport. At those prices, I have no idea how the CAS people can afford to practice. The prices are even worse than the self-defense ammunition you mention.
Elmer, my point when I originally brought up Remingtons 30 carbine pricing, was a comparison between their price for FMJ versus SP. Yes, Remington FMJ is priced moderately. But there is no reason for the price to jump from $25 for FMJ to $40 for SP...particularly when the component bullets sell for the same price, are loaded with the same powder charge, in the same case, and put in the same box.
I understood your point. My point was that Remington and Federal apparently match the price on the Privi-Partizan ball ammo, even though I'm confident their production costs are higher. Since the soft point business is a much smaller market, they probably elect to make a larger margin on it.
Went to the Eastman show today in Marietta - Georgia Arms had their .38sp 158gr LSWCHP +P in stock. All their non HP was plated. If I can figure out how to post a picture I'll do that.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q314/jmoln/LSWCHPP.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q314/jmoln/LSWCHPP.jpg
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Hammerdown77
Member
I'd like to get some of that. They still show they are out of stock for this on their website, though. I'll have to give 'em a call on Monday.
About that margin..... part of the cost of ammo production is setup cost. If you can amortize that cost over a large number of rounds, the cost per box is much less. I have no idea how much SP .30 carbine any manufacturer makes, but it's certainly much less than the amount of ball ammo made. To make that run of ammo, the machines have to be shut down, changes made, sample runs made to verify settings, and after QC blesses the setup, production can start. All those delays cost money.
If the cost accountants are participating in the pricing, they'll also add in the cost of lost ball ammo production and the costs of resetting the machines to ball ammo to the costs of production for the SP ammo. Commercial ammo production changes aren't remotely like you changing dies on your own press.
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