Federal 45 ACP primer surprise

Thinking about it, I guess the ammunition manufacturers don't really want us making our own since it cuts into their piece of the pie so they're not going to say anything.
Yeah, that's why they sell components...

I suppose the primer folks could have put a statement on their Large Primer boxes - "caution some 45acp is now small primer", or something like that. Truth be told I don't bother to read what's written on there now so it wouldn't make a damn anyway...
Yep, plus they probably think reloaders are smart enough to actually inspect their brass before loading it, and in the process see that it's a small primer.

Ammo makers design their brass based on what accomplishes the design goal most economically. How that affects reloaders is of very little concern to the ammo makers. They figure if you don't like the brass they use in their manufactured ammo you're welcome to buy their component brass, which is designed specifically for reloading.
 
Yeah, that's why they sell components...

Yep, plus they probably think reloaders are smart enough to actually inspect their brass before loading it, and in the process see that it's a small primer.

Ammo makers design their brass based on what accomplishes the design goal most economically. How that affects reloaders is of very little concern to the ammo makers. They figure if you don't like the brass they use in their manufactured ammo you're welcome to buy their component brass, which is designed specifically for reloading.

So you say that Winchester, CCI, Federal et al made brass specifically for reloading that is different from the brass they use for production? I guess I learned something new today...

Everyone here inspects their brass to some extent and the primer size was not an attribute that was of a known variable. Hence, the discussion.

As to the tone of your comments, I do hope all that sarcasm makes you feel better about yourself.
 
So you say that Winchester, CCI, Federal et al made brass specifically for reloading that is different from the brass they use for production? I guess I learned something new today...
Have you seen any small primer component brass from Winchester, CCI, Federal et al? If not I would conclude that yes, they do make brass specifically for reloading that is different from the brass they use for production.

Everyone here inspects their brass to some extent and the primer size was not an attribute that was of a known variable. Hence, the discussion.
Really, the small primer issue has been around for years, but even if you hadn't heard of it, it's very apparent. I really can't see how anyone could miss a SP among LPs when looking at cases.

As to the tone of your comments, I do hope all that sarcasm makes you feel better about yourself.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
 
Have you seen any small primer component brass from Winchester, CCI, Federal et al? If not I would conclude that yes, they do make brass specifically for reloading that is different from the brass they use for production.

Really, the small primer issue has been around for years, but even if you hadn't heard of it, it's very apparent. I really can't see how anyone could miss a SP among LPs when looking at cases.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Well to be honest the only new brass I see on the shelves is from Winchester or Remington. And I have never bought any new brass from anyone. But I took a look on-line and Federal Premium offers 45 acp brass for sale. Interestingly enough, they caution that what you receive may or may not be small primer. Federal Premium - Brass
So the information has been available from the makers although for how long I do not know. But I do know that the vast majority of us found out via word of mouth or by finding SP brass in our machines. And we can also conclude (through evidence and not conjecture) that the ammunition makers do not sell special reloading brass, eh?
While you can't see how anyone could miss a SP if you read this thread and several others like it, many, many of us have. And it is because SP vs LP was not an attribute we considered.

And you have not hurt my feelings at all. Toward you, I have none.
 
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Well to be honest the only new brass I see on the shelves is from Winchester or Remington. And I have never bought any new brass from anyone. But I took a look on-line and Federal Premium offers 45 acp brass for sale. Interestingly enough, they caution that what you receive may or may not be small primer. Federal Premium - Brass

That link is confusing. Are they referring to cases or loaded cartridges? While they may possibly sell small primer brass, the caution I see is
A number of factory 45 Auto cartridges are fitted with small primer pockets.
I can't imagine anyone selling two different case configurations and not having different part numbers. Seems that would generate a lot of unhappy customers.

So the information has been available from the makers although for how long I do not know. But I do know that the vast majority of us found out via word of mouth or by finding SP brass in our machines. And we can also conclude (through evidence and not conjecture) that the ammunition makers do not sell special reloading brass, eh?
While you can't see how anyone could miss a SP if you read this thread and several others like it, many, many of us have. And it is because SP vs LP was not an attribute we considered.
So, seriously, you don't look at the headstamp when you inspect your brass?
 
That link is confusing. Are they referring to cases or loaded cartridges? While they may possibly sell small primer brass, the caution I see is I can't imagine anyone selling two different case configurations and not having different part numbers. Seems that would generate a lot of unhappy customers.

So, seriously, you don't look at the headstamp when you inspect your brass?

No doubt. The page link is: "COMPONENTS>Home>Products>Brass." And the full paragraph reads:
"A number of factory 45 Auto cartridges are fitted with small primer pockets. There is no safety hazard in reloading these cases with standard small pistol primers. However, most published load data is developed using cartridge cases with large primer pockets and standard large pistol primers. A small pistol primer should have no trouble igniting a 45 Auto charge but may produce slightly less pressure."

Honestly I don't look at headstamps in 45acp. Don't know what to look for? They all load same-same regardless of brand. Well, except for primer size.:D You better believe I look now.

Now in 9mm I do. There are a number of known bogies in that caliber, including crimped-in primers, Eastern Euro junk or Berdan primers.
 
No doubt. The page link is: "COMPONENTS>Home>Products>Brass." And the full paragraph reads:
"A number of factory 45 Auto cartridges are fitted with small primer pockets. There is no safety hazard in reloading these cases with standard small pistol primers. However, most published load data is developed using cartridge cases with large primer pockets and standard large pistol primers. A small pistol primer should have no trouble igniting a 45 Auto charge but may produce slightly less pressure."
Yes, they should clear that up by saying "All of our component brass has large primer pockets" or something similar.

Honestly I don't look at headstamps in 45acp. Don't know what to look for? They all load same-same regardless of brand. Well, except for primer size.:D You better believe I look now.

Now in 9mm I do. There are a number of known bogies in that caliber, including crimped-in primers, Eastern Euro junk or Berdan primers.
When inspecting .45 ACP brass I find Berdans (rarely - those are usually steel), Mil crimps, and A-merc. Also, I sort all my brass by headstamp because some brands load slightly differently. R-P tends to be a little softer, S&B usually has tighter pockets, etc.
 
Stated about as well as it gets!

That guy's letter was the biggest crybaby letter I have ever seen in years of reading Blue Press. He basically wanted other shooters to stop using small primer brass because he was too stupid to tell the difference.

His level of common sense and intelligence also comes into question when you ask why was he putting so much pressure on the handle to set off the primer in the first place. If it was not seating as easy as the previous primers he should have stopped there.

If all goes back to inspecting your brass BEFORE you start reloading not after.

Update: Since my original post about this individual I have been given very good reason to believe he had automated his reloader which is in direct violation of Dillon's warranty. This being the case the accident he described was all his own fault.
 
That guy's letter was the biggest crybaby letter I have ever seen in years of reading Blue Press. He basically wanted other shooters to stop using small primer brass because he was too stupid to tell the difference.

His level of common sense and intelligence also comes into question when you ask why was he putting so much pressure on the handle to set off the primer in the first place. If it was not seating as easy as the previous primers he should have stopped there.

If all goes back to inspecting your brass BEFORE you start reloading not after.

Update: Since my original post about this individual I have been given very good reason to believe he had automated his reloader which is in direct violation of Dillon's warranty. This being the case the accident he described was all his own fault.

A follow up on the Blue Press Letter to the Editor. I was told yesterday by a member of his club that not only did this cry baby send a letter to the Blue Press telling 45 shooters not to use small primer brass he sent a letter to everyone in his gun club with a similar demand. This guy must be a real trip to associate with.
 
The question about primer through hole size asked above has not been addressed. Here's what happened back about 2000±.

Winchester brought out their first NT ammunition about that time. It used their NT large primer, but because the brissance was not as high as their normal primer, they enlarged the through hole in the primer pocket to get reliable ignition. Several people, myself included, noticed this and called Olin to ask if the cartridges were safe to reload with "small-hole" loads. Olin said that they had checked this and that there was no difference in reloading between the two hole sizes. I tended to believe them, but I still ran my own tests. I loaded both case types with a series of matching charge weights and ran them over the chrono while looking for pressure signs. The velocities at the same charge weight were the same, within experimental error. The first primer flattening occurred at the same charge weight for each case. I was convinced that Olin's assertions were true - same performance no matter the hole size.

Very shortly after that, Winchester switched to small primers for their NT ammunition. I found that out when I crunched a primer in the Dillon (no explosion). I called Olin again and asked about this, and they confirmed that all of their future NT production was SPP. I told them my experience, and their opinion was that they didn't make ammunition for reloading, so it wasn't a problem. I told them that most courts wouldn't see it that way, and that the first explosion that lead to serious injuries would probably cost them a bunch of money. Shortly after that, they put a warning on their website about this, but they never marked the boxes AFAIK.

Buck
 
For what its worth the Federal AE45A small pistol primer cases have a normal size primer flash hole. I've reloaded a box of these four times with the following load, 6.5gr of Unique under a Rainier 230gr HP with a Federal standard small pistol primer with no noticeable difference from the same load with the large pistol primer. One of these days I will have to drag the chronograph out and compare the two just fer grins. The only downside to these seem to be keeping track of the small and large primer caseings. I always keep my ammo in fifty round plastic boxs and they stay together for thier entire service life with a data card that notes how many times these cases have been fired, I have added a large print "small primer" note to the data card for these caseings.
 
This has been a discussion on many of the reloading forums for the past several years. Here is an explanation I posted on THR:

The demand for non-toxic priming has been long in coming, and has resulted in a lot of pressure on the ammunition companies to produce primers that don't contain lead. The long used standard priming compound has been lead styphnate, which has worked very well for a long time. It has a long shelf life, is stable and reliable, but releases vaporized lead into the air when detonated. Primers do detonate, since the priming compound is an actual explosive.

Numerous compounds were tried, and the one that was settled on is Diazodinitrophenol, aka DDNP for short. It's nearly as stable as lead styphnate, but has a much higher brisance. That's speed, or velocity, for those not familiar with explosives. The higher brisance results in more pressure, faster. This pushes the primer back out of the primer pocket much faster than lead styphnate priming does. When a primer detonates, it backs out of the primer pocket and the pressure from the burning gases of the gunpowder drive the case back against the bolt face, which reseats the primer into the pocket.

The DDNP primed cases showed extreme flattening of primers from this effect. This was caused by the fact that the primer was backed out longer than with the previous priming compound and flattened the primer cup by the time the case caught up with it. This can cause problems with some types of firearms, rendering them inoperable.

The first attempt to slow the DDNP primers down was crimping the primers in place. This was a marginal fix and didn't always work. The next attempt was enlarging the flash hole to relieve some of the pressure, which worked better. They found that combining crimping and enlarged flash holes pretty much cured the previous problems.

Along the way, they also found, or rediscovered, that the .45 acp case doesn't require a large primer to set off the small volume of powder in the case. There have been .45 acp cases primed with small pistol primers for many years, and quite successfully. The earliest one I have in my collection is headstamped 1957, but I've heard of much earlier examples, and I read one account that when John Moses Browning invented the .45 acp, he originally used a small pistol primer, but the Army insisted on large primers, so that was how he made them. I haven't verified this story, but it sounds plausible.

That brings us to the current era, where several companies are now making .45 acp brass with small primer pockets. I've seen Speer, Federal, Blazer, Winchester and at least one other brand, but I don't remember which one it was, so I won't hazard a guess and possibly make a mistake.

I've been loading both large and small primed .45 acp brass exactly the same for several years now. With the same data, except for the primer size, they hit the paper in the same place. Forum member The Bushmaster found that the same powder charge produced an average of about 35 fps less with the small pistol primers vs. large pistol primers with the same bullet.

Small pistol primers are nothing new, except in the U.S. Over the years I've seen many examples of small pistol primed .45 acp cases, but they were all of European production, and mostly Berdan primed.

There is no conspiracy by the ammunition companies against reloaders by changing primer sizes. The large primer has never been necessary in the .45 acp, and quite a few people who shoot mostly bullseye are reporting better accuracy at the 50 yard line with the small pistol primed brass. There is no cost savings to the manufacturer, since the small primer pocket means there's more brass in the base of the case, which adds up over many millions of rounds. The costs to make primers is basically the same for large and small, hence the same price for both from most companies.

I'm neither condoning, nor condemning the change, merely explaining it from the information I've gotten from the factory reps when discussing this issue with them at the various SHOT Shows.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I have 150 or so primed and ready to go. If I go to the range, I want at least 200 of one or the other. It's a PITA to sort them each time.

If you know they're mixed, you can sort them by eye, but it's tiring. It's better to use a pocket cleaner as a gauge.

In a Dillon, the case being primed is 2" from the feed tube. I don't see how you could set off the whole feeder if one detonates during seating. It's pretty obvious when the press goes "clunk" when the primer is too big. The same goes if you try to prime a crimped case. It's not a good idea to rush or force the priming operation.
 
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