You have the option of not posting and moving on...
Chrome Lined Barrels and Chambers.....
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You have the option of not posting and moving on...
I'm willing to let it go if you are.
I have used the forward assist to save my bacon and that little dust door some people think is unnecessary also. I guess my M-16 just saw more dirty, muddy, dusty action than some range-only weapons do.
I like both of those particular options because I know what they have done for me. That's all I have to say about it.
BadKarmaZeroSix
US Veteran
+1 for lost lake...when those features are fallbacks when the shtf, u appreciate them more...and vmax, i will say that japes and oneeye are 2 members of this forum that i (as well as many others im sure) show great respect for their knowledge when it comes to the AR platform...perhaps u should allow their objections be noted and weighed with a certain amount of reverence before being so quickly dismissed...we have all heard your points, thank you for the input, and hope that you contribute to other threads in the future...
cyphertext
US Veteran
I'm willing to let it go if you are.
I have used the forward assist to save my bacon and that little dust door some people think is unnecessary also. I guess my M-16 just saw more dirty, muddy, dusty action than some range-only weapons do.
I like both of those particular options because I know what they have done for me. That's all I have to say about it.
Ok, so you used the forward assist and the ejection port cover on your issued rifle in Afghanistan or Iraq...but was it really the forward assist, or one of the four steps you took prior to tapping the forward assist that got you back in action?
And I understand you want it on a duty weapon in the desert, but do you really think it is required for defending your home in Wisconsin? My Sport rides uncased in the rack in the jeep or in the bed of my truck while we drive all over the deer lease in West Texas. The thing is covered in dust. Never has had an issue. I can't say it never will, but I have shot it enough in those conditions to feel confident that the firearm is reliable.
Fair enough. Having stated my case, you're right, its time to move on. Hopefully the information presented will be useful to someone. I certainly harbor no ill feelings toward anyone here. Its been an upfront, civil discussion among predominantly like-minded folks. Let's face it, we all agree on far more than we disagree. Happy shooting.
Maddmax
US Veteran
Interesting. More and more LEO's are carring M&P Modern Sporting Rifles in their cars as Duty weapons. Not to mention M&P sidearms as Duty weapons and also BUG's too. You might say cost,they say reliability and accuracy. They are also buying M&P Sporting Rifles and sidearms for personal off duty weapons.
I have shot your upper tier and the so called lower tier S&W's. My M&P Sporting Rifles will give your (so called) upper tier a run for the money with the same length barrels. I have both,enjoy both and have more than a couple of both.
Needing the "real thing" in a home defense situation would be a 12 guage shot gun,not a Modern Sporting Rifle of any "flavor". You,of all people and your "tens of thousands of rounds" should know the balistics and the devastation of 5.56 rounds flying through the air at 3200-2500fps and the range of the bullets... Your bullets would/could be flying through neighbors houses 5-600 yards away easy... You'd be wiping out hot water heaters,cats,dogs,people and more than likely,never scratch what you were shooting at in the first place. A well seasoned intruder will disarm your un-trained "hiney" and had your hat to you before you could find the safety lever...
I opened my eyes and gave BOTH a good run for the money.
As for the military. ...they are the best at dragging their feet on ANY change. Too much going on under the table.
OK, now that my head has stopped spinning, I'll make three points in reply to this (as my last comment in this thread)...
- You do know that S&W makes an upper tier AR too, right?
- You do know that 556 typically has LESS penetration in home defense/LE scenarios than many SG and pistol rounds, right?
- Do you really believe it would be easier to disarm someone with an AR than a shotgun? Really?
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cyphertext
US Veteran
VMaxSplat, I asked you earlier why you thought S&W has switched to Melonite on their upper tier rifles, and you didn't answer. If you look at the VTAC II and the MOE, they are Melonite treated, not chrome lined.
V-Max. I am still waiting on empirical data that the chrome lining is better than melonite treated. I can show you that it isnt. But other than saying something about the military using it for 50yrs, That doesnt prove its better, it proves its the military. All I ask is that you prove it, I understand that you believe it is. Thats fine...where is your Data!!
JaPes
Member
True.
Your opinion is just that, your opinion. Same as mine. This thread devolved into a pissing match by those who staunchly believe they are absolutely "right". Arguing isn't going to change the opinion of someone deeply entrenched in their opinion.
All that will happen in this thread from this point on is an ever increasing level of butt-hurt and name calling. I've seen it on a certain forum dedicated to an Austrian pistol forum.
If you absolutely believe in the mil-spec gospel of the TDP, then M4C is the place to be. You'll get nothing but individuals in agreement. Then you can argue the merits of the Rockwell hardness of a hammer pivot pin in a top tier rifle or any other esoteric M16/M4 detail to your hearts content. Run quasi home brew "scientific" tests, claim to be a subject matter authority, and argue away. Be happy in the company of like minded individuals.
If you're a civilian leaning AR15 enthusiast who believes that the civilian market has the flexibility in materials & construction to exceed the minimum standards set by the military, then this is generally a good place to be. We like to try out the latest innovations the civilian AR15 market has to offer.
There are those established forum members that advocate the mil-spec TDP, with whom I do not agree, yet do so in a consistent manner that gain respect such as C4IGrant.
In the end, all that matters is that you have an AR15. If the S ever hits the F, I don't care what rollmark is on the rifle of the person standing and fighting next to me. Just as long as that person's rifle goes bang, I'm a happy camper.
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Dikinalaska
Member
Wow this thread went downhill quick. Just to add my .02, I didn't have a bias either way when it cane to melonite vs chrome as I'm fairly new to the sport of shooting. But as an outside perspective here trying to learn, I followed links provided here and did some digging on the web on my own and now have decided that I made the right choice with my melonite barrel. There is, in fact, third parties that have nothing to do with firearms that have proved there are far more advantages of melonite vs chrome. Lubricity (which I didn't even know was a word until now) would be one the main benefits I see, especially when you do apply it to firearms. More research proved that accuracy was actually better with the melonite. I had no opinion either way before this, but now I do. To a newbie trying to get it all figured out, the military using it for 50+ years has argument has no real bearing. Not when data and facts come into play. My thinking on that is, most likely the reason they don't change the spec, especially on something like barrels, is that there's how many thousands, if not millions of weapons they'd have to change? Thank you everyone for input though, it's all helped in my learning more about this wonderful sport.
Yep. I'll take every advantage I can.
Mil-spec is what it is, it insures your AR upper works on my AR lower.
Mil-spec did make the Hummer H1 which is a whole lot more truck than a civilian Hummer H3!
The military designs equipment for getting the best product at the most reasonable price assuring it will work for x-amount of years with y-maintenance under z-conditions. It's usually pretty durable stuff.
Yes there is better available. MUCH better. I'd like to look at this Melonite coating and check it out. Sounds pretty nice, I've got nothing against it at all.
Maddmax
US Veteran
#1 Read what I said. I have shot your upper tier and the so called lower tier S&W's. I have both,enjoy both and have more than a couple of both.
#2 Wake up. You just blew your cover on that one... "Kool-Aid" anyone ?
#3 Seasoned bad guy verses Un-seasoned civilian... In less than a heartbeat holding either weapon... It's the moment of hesitation from an un-trained,un-skilled civilian about to wet his pants in pure fear..
(as my last comment in this thread)...
BYE BYE
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cyphertext
US Veteran
Mil-spec did make the Hummer H1 which is a whole lot more truck than a civilian Hummer H3!
Dude, that is apples and oranges...but compare the HMMVW to the first gen civilian Hummer (early 90's)....
They rolled down the same assembly line, to a point. Then the civvy version was tricked out with decent interior, a little softer ride, etc... everything to make it function in the day to day environment, not the wartime environment. If you wanted to take a girl out to dinner, a movie, and maybe a cruise down by the beach, the civvy H1 gets the nod. If you wanted to throw it on a pallet and drop it out the back of a C-17, maybe not. Different versions for different "missions" and environments.
Now the H2 and H3....nothing like the old H1, only has the name.
I see the lack of a forward assist in the same manner. It isn't really necessary for a civilian rifle in my opinion, so offer a model without it. Same for the dust cover. And yes, it lowers the price point, but I wouldn't call the Sport an econo, cheap, or junk rifle. It has a good barrel and is running the same BCG as the rest of the M&P line.
The melonite barrel could possibly be an improvement over chrome, some testing has shown that it is. But the military will be slow to adapt and we all know this. Look how long this rifle has been in use, with modifications being made overtime.
The good thing is that there is a rifle out there for all of us.
Maddmax
US Veteran
That too. And if you watch people with the dust covers,I've noticed many of them are open 80-90% of the time anyway.
I've yet to see anyone use their FA on the range or hunting.. I didn't buy the M&P T because it had a FA & DC,I bought it cause I liked it. I didn't buy the Sport because it didn't have a FA & DC. Bought it cause I liked it too (and Grover was twisting my arm having all the fun with his). AND S&W has them listed as MODERN Sporting Rifles. I've ran them dirty & clean,hot & cold with out ANY glitches yet. That dancing pony is old enough to be in the glue factory,never new the military to be too quick on making changes when there mind is set. I never saw anything about MODERN on their lables and it must keep the FA & DC because it still needs them. I wish people would stop calling it a coating. Melonite is not a coating but rather a treatment to the barrel steel. Chrome lined, on the other hand, is a coating and because so it can be irregular in its application.
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ARGH
Member
do ak-47's and ak-74u's have dust covers and forward assists? if not then they surely seen their fair share of wars in all types of environments. why would the ar-15 be required to have these, then?
Dikinalaska
Member
I just wonder why the 1:8 twist and 5r rifling hasn't been brought up on our "lower tier" rifles... From the reading I've done the rifling has major advantages. But than again, I am still a newbie.
cyphertext
US Veteran
If you look at S&W's current top of the line rifles, VTAC II and the MOE, you will find that they now have Melonite treated barrels, with 5R rifling in a 1:8 twist. The barrel is made out of 4150 instead of 4140 on the higher end rifles, but they have incorporated the same characteristics as the Sport.
I doubt S&W would have made this move had Melonite not been at least equal to hard chroming in their opinion.
Dikinalaska
Member
I meant brought up in this discussion. Sorry, I didn't word it correctly
