CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

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Israel's security services, Shin-bet and Mossad do NOT carry with one in the chamber. When they go into a "situation" they chamber one.

Tactical awareness tells you when it's time to chamber a round.
 
Israel's security services, Shin-bet and Mossad do NOT carry with one in the chamber. When they go into a "situation" they chamber one.

Tactical awareness tells you when it's time to chamber a round.

I posted this a page or two back I guess it's time to post it again

Since the Israelis are reflexively brought up every time someone mentions carrying with an empty chamber, maybe we should look at why they carry (or carried) with an empty chamber.

When the Israeli Defense Force was orginally formed back in the 40s, they were armed with whatever weapons they, as a nation, could quickly acquire. This meant that their pistols were a mish-mash of different designs. Some single action, some double action, some with safeties, some without. Many were not drop safe. Many did not have holsters.

They needed one simple method to train a large number of people, many of them inexpereinced in the use of arms, regardless of what weapon they had. The result was to carry with the chamber empty and rack on the draw. This method:

1) works regardless of the gun's design (SA, DA, safety, no safety)
2) prevents a non-drop-safe gun from going off if dropped (a real possibility when you just stick it in your waistband because you don't have a holster)
3) avoids the possibility of someone not accustomed to a safety sticking a loaded, cocked, and unlocked single action into their waistband

It is important to note that this method IS A COMPROMISE.

There is no tactical advantage to be gained from carrying this way. In fact there is a tactical disadvantage, because it requires both hands. With a modern firearm, there is no safety advantage to be gained from carrying chamber empty, either. (One possible exception to this is someone trying to shoot you with your own gun, but if you are planning your carry method based on someone stealing your concealed gun from you before you can react, perhaps you should reconsider carrying a gun.)

If you need to use a gun in self defense, you're already behind the curve because:
A) You didn't see the situation coming in time to avoid it.
B) You weren't able to find and take an escape from the situation once it started.
C) You weren't able to control or de-escalate the situation before a gun became your only option.
D) You need a gun RIGHT NOW.
E) Your gun is still in it's holster (because you don't draw before you need it, right?)

Why put yourself at a further disadvantage by having that holstered gun unloaded as well?

You are not a member of the IDF. You are not mandated to carry your gun in a less-than-optimal manner. Why would you choose to handicap yourself this way? Why would you carry in a manner that may require more hands than you'll have available? That takes more time to deploy? That precludes the ability to fire from retention? That requires putting the gun out there in a place that's bad for retention?

The Israelis don't carry chamber empty becasue it's tacti-cool. It was a compromise that gained a bit of needed safety at the cost of tactical advantage. Today, now that they have standardized, modern pistols, many Israelis (like SWAT and special forces units) do carry with a loaded chamber.


Just carry with one in the pipe, already.
 
Israel's security services, Shin-bet and Mossad do NOT carry with one in the chamber. When they go into a "situation" they chamber one.

Tactical awareness tells you when it's time to chamber a round.
  1. Good for the Israelis. I don't care. I don't plan to stop eating pork chops and shell fish either.
  2. There's a difference between "tactical awareness" and "tactical omniscience". The latter is make believe. I'm not trusting my life to make believe.
 
I've been timed and there's no doubt in my mind I can draw and get two rounds on target in 1.3 seconds.
OK, ProtectedOne may not have said it, but I will. Present from concealment and put two shots on target in 1.3 seconds? Hmmm, that would be impressive. What distance? 7 yards? 3 yards?

I time myself as much as I can. At 7 yards I can present from concealment and put two rounds within a hand span of each other, in the thoracic cavity, in under 2.3 seconds consistently. My goal is less than 2 seconds. The absolute fastest I've done it was just under 2 seconds at about 1.98 seconds. I haven't been able to do it again.

From the ready I can get two, on target in under 1 second consistently at 5 yards, but that's not from concealment. That's a whole different ball game.

I've also timed a bunch of other people doing this same drill. I have yet to see anyone do it consistently under 2 seconds.

So, yes, I'm calling you out. I want corroboration. I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm just saying I want to see it. Don't get me wrong, I believe you. Shooting a controlled pair on target in 1.3 seconds is very impressive shooting. But I still want to see it.
 
There is a rather infamous video online of a jewelry store owner being killed by armed assailants as he tries to rack the slide of his gun. I won't post it here, but you can find it. When the SHTF and guys come in blasting, all bets are off. In this case, I believe he was hit at least once, although not yet fatally. But his gun is drawn and pointed right at his assailants. Condition 1 and he survives and they die. But instead, as he tries over and over to rack the slide, he is killed in cold blood.

Now, not everyone is going to find themselves with people barging in the door shooting. But if you think that's just not going to happen to you, then you are only one step away from saying "eh, I probably will never get mugged, either." You carry a gun for one reason - so you are prepared for the totally unexpected life-threatening situations that can happen. If you aren't Condition 1, you aren't ready. Period. I understand the hesitation some have with striker-fired pistols. Fine - carry something else that you can carry at the ready and save the Glock for the range.
 
There is a rather infamous video online of a jewelry store owner being killed by armed assailants as he tries to rack the slide of his gun. I won't post it here, but you can find it. When the SHTF and guys come in blasting, all bets are off. In this case, I believe he was hit at least once, although not yet fatally. But his gun is drawn and pointed right at his assailants. Condition 1 and he survives and they die. But instead, as he tries over and over to rack the slide, he is killed in cold blood.

Now, not everyone is going to find themselves with people barging in the door shooting. But if you think that's just not going to happen to you, then you are only one step away from saying "eh, I probably will never get mugged, either." You carry a gun for one reason - so you are prepared for the totally unexpected life-threatening situations that can happen. If you aren't Condition 1, you aren't ready. Period. I understand the hesitation some have with striker-fired pistols. Fine - carry something else that you can carry at the ready and save the Glock for the range.
Revolver would have solved that problem
Or a Semi with a revolver like trigger and one in the pipe
 
The problem with Condition 3 is in a sudden fight situation your off hand is going to busy fending off your attacker(s) while your digging your weapon out from concealment! This is no time to be trying to rack a round in the chamber!! It can be done but only if you've trained yourself intensely with the draw and rack system like the Israelis use. But still your tied up with both hands busy trying to prep the weapon while your getting pummeled or worse!
Just chamber a round, apply the safety (if one is present) and go forth.
Because remember there's no warning or signal before a fight starts! Dale

I disagree with your statement in this regard - IF you are trying to fend off an attacker with one hand or arm - you have already lost. Your attacker has already gotten way to close to you (remember the 21 ft. rule). You are now in hand to hand combat fight - and you are now better off with an edged weapon to save you life.JMO
 
OK, ProtectedOne may not have said it, but I will. Present from concealment and put two shots on target in 1.3 seconds? Hmmm, that would be impressive. What distance? 7 yards? 3 yards?

I've been timed and there's no doubt in my mind I can draw and get two rounds on target in 1.3 seconds.

First please note that I never claimed that I am consistantly shooting at 1.3 seconds I claimed that there was no doubt in my mind I could do it. Now, I probably said it wrong but this is what I based my claim on

When we do our quals we do them at 1 yard , 2 yards , 4 yards 5 yards and 7 yards.

1 and 2 yards are two shots in two seconds, 4 and 5 are two shots in three seconds and 7 yards is two shots in four seconds.

If I'm always under the time at 1 and 2 yards it stands to reason that I'm at least putting 2 rounds on target in less than 1.5 seconds.
 
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One of my CCW shooting buddies (mag-fed-semi-auto) tells me he doesn't carry a round in the chamber. He uses a crotch holster, guess he's nervous he might have a negligent discharge. Ouch!

He says stuff like: "I've been carrying for years, I will always have time to get one in the pipe."

I say: what if you are wounded and can't use two hands? He starts showing me how he can chamber by holding the semi-auto up against his levi's and pushing on the slide.

Anyone else feel like this guy?

Always keep one in the pipe ready for quick delivery.
 
I carry and M&P40 and always carry hot. I don't want to have to ask the perp to hold on a second while I rack the slide..If you are going to CC you may as well carry hot. Otherwise you are leaving yourself defenseless for the most important first few seconds of an encounter.
 
Israel's security services, Shin-bet and Mossad do NOT carry with one in the chamber. When they go into a "situation" they chamber one.

Tactical awareness tells you when it's time to chamber a round.

The key words here are "when they go into a situation". When you CC you never know when THE situation will develop. You never know you will need your weapon until the time shows up. Then you probably wont have the time to rack the slide. ALWAYS carry HOT. The life you save may well be your own.
 
I disagree with your statement in this regard - IF you are trying to fend off an attacker with one hand or arm - you have already lost. Your attacker has already gotten way to close to you (remember the 21 ft. rule). You are now in hand to hand combat fight - and you are now better off with an edged weapon to save you life.JMO
  1. You've lost when you give up. The guy in the Dayton gas station fended off TWO attackers until he could draw and fire his .45 with a chambered round. HE didn't give up, nor was he defeated.
  2. There are places, like Ohio, where it's easier to carry a gun without going to jail for it than a knife.
 
You are now in hand to hand combat fight - and you are now better off with an edged weapon to save you life.JMO
Without intensive training and continuous practice, this is untrue.

First, you're missing the simple fact that the knife must still be deployed. Will you have time to draw the knife and open it? Maybe. If you do, will you cut yourself in the process? Most likely.

I think, based on your assertion that drawing a gun is not the best idea at that point, that empty hand skills are better suited to that situation. Even so, I still think the gun is a better tool if there is a round in the chamber.
 
When we do our quals we do them at 1 yard , 2 yards , 4 yards 5 yards and 7 yards.

1 and 2 yards are two shots in two seconds, 4 and 5 are two shots in three seconds and 7 yards is two shots in four seconds.
Based on the distance, I think these timings are more reasonable. I do think 2 shots in 4 seconds at 7 yards is a little slow though.

When shooting at 1 and 2 yards, are you shooting from the hip (close contact)?

If I'm always under the time at 1 and 2 yards it stands to reason that I'm at least putting 2 rounds on target in less than 1.5 seconds.
Not necessarily. The next time you're at training, ask your instructor if he can time you by yourself. The timer doesn't lie and is a great tool to tell you just how fast you really are.

Even at 3 yards (I've never timed myself any closer than that) I don't think I can beat 1.8 seconds when starting from concealment. I will try the next time I go to the range and see what I get.

This timing stuff is why I think having a round in the chamber is so important. When someone is close, you simply don't have time to do anything beyond shoot. Racking the gun on your pants is a good skill to learn, but not something that should be relied on if you don't have to.
 
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