Open Carry: I knew it would happen

[ladder13]

Unfortunately some open carry folks do not make the best representatives for the Second Amendment.

And the "gun" folks who want mandatory training, permit fee's, mental health checks, carry restrictions, and the like, how exactly do they represent the 2nd A?

Being an NRA member doesn't mean you're some sort of 2A champion.

 

[Mainsail]

For every story that OC prevented a crime, I can find one where it didn't.

OK, can you cite a few?

Truth is there are far too many variables in whether the open display of a weapon discourages crimes.

Agree. There are advantages and disadvantages to either.

Banks, armored cars, jewelry stores, and even gun shops get robbed.

I'm none of those things. You can't reasonably compare any of those to a private citizen carrying openly- apples and oranges.

And in the story you mentioned, you don't even know if the guys were about to rob you. They did t say anything. Didn't try to take anything. The guy saying "no problem man" could just as well been his reaction to seeing your startled reaction and your holstered weapon. Or they might have assumed you were a cop and didn't want to mess with a cop. Who knows?

I know. I was there. Also, I never had time to make an expression, startled or otherwise. It took me a second or two after they passed before I realized what he was up to. And that was with me watching them and aware of my surroundings. The direction my face it pointing has little to do with the direction I'm looking.

I'm typing this as I sit in a park watching my kids play. Nobody knows I have my LC9-S in my waist. And I live in an OC state. And I rarely see it.

That's good, you're far ahead of most parents/grandparents in providing for the security of the children in your care. However, you have a small gun in a caliber that is unlikely to stop a pit-bull or other powerful dog, which is probably your most likely threat there. Open or indifferent carry allows a larger (and easier to shoot) gun in a more optimum caliber. Open carry is far more likely to prevent that pervert in the trench coat from doing something traumatic to the children. Open carry is more likely to deter the carjacker from approaching after the kids are in the car. All subjective of course. Being armed is #1 and you have that covered- good on you.

 

[cmort666]

For every story that OC prevented a crime, I can find one where it didn't.

And anti-gunners can do the same with concealed carry... and ownership.

 

[American1776]

Were you OC'ing?

What "tactical advantage" would you have had with a concealed weapon like touted so much around here? Three men coming up on you.

Yes, I always OC as a default way of carrying. That day I was OCing the HK P7 in a Don Hume leather OWB thumb break holster at the 3 o'clock position.

In my situation, I KNOW that the Open Carried H&K defused a situation that Concealed carry would not have, UNLESS I drew my concealed carry pistol. But that would not have been justified (three scary looking guys leering and approaching). So, with a concealed pistol, I would have had to wait to see what their intentions really were. Not an advantage in my opinion.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

I remember reading somewhere that OCing was like being nekked, sometimes it's best then other times it's better to be clothed.

 

[ladder13]

Yes, I always OC as a default way of carrying. That day I was OCing the HK P7 in a Don Hume leather OWB thumb break holster at the 3 o'clock position.

In my situation, I KNOW that the Open Carried H&K defused a situation that Concealed carry would not have, UNLESS I drew my concealed carry pistol. But that would not have been justified (three scary looking guys leering and approaching). So, with a concealed pistol, I would have had to wait to see what their intentions really were. Not an advantage in my opinion.

Agreed, if you drew beforehand you may have been arrested for brandishing or worse.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

For every story that OC prevented a crime, I can find one where it didn't.

The latest prisoners surveys estimate that 3,600 rapes a day are never attempted because the victim either showed a gun, said she had a gun, or the rapist thought the victim had a gun for some other reason.

Looks like to me that a rapist knowing or even suspecting a woman is armed, OC or otherwise, is a deterrent.

Can you come up with a few examples, stories, a survey, anything that indicates rapists target women because they know the women are armed and can fight back? Should be easy enough because knowing that a person has a gun makes them a target, right?

Guns Prevent 3,600 Rapes a Day | Frontpage Mag


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Wright Rossi Study.

You claim you're an NRA member... here ya go.

Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;"

A 57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

Significantly, almost 40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun."

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20030909/the-armed-criminal-in-america

Please tell us about all the criminals who select victims because they know they are armed and can fight back.

 

[cmort666]

Agreed, if you drew beforehand you may have been arrested for brandishing or worse.

That's why I love pocket carry.

I can have my hand on my Model 36 and nobody's the wiser.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Well, it was. It's now known as Intellectual Disability in the DSM 5.

Well maybe he hasn't yet gotten his DSM 5 yet and is still consulting his DSM 4.
Kinda like according to the hairy legged harpy's from up north who came in to school us in defending illegals-they must now be referred to as UI's Undocumented immigrants rather than illegal aliens. I raised my hand and inquired if that means we can't use wetback anymore?
They didn't call on me any more that afternoon.

As far as open carry-I don't. Think it's a "look at me" situation. Carrying for me is done discreetly. I don't want anyone to know I'm carrying as it is nobody's business but mine. you want to carry open and the law allows it go ahead but "most" people I've seen open carry strike me as goobers-the same kind that flash their concealed carry badge. Just me.......but the fewer people that know me as carrying the better. Stuff like that I like to keep on the down low

 

[kbm6893]

The latest prisoners surveys estimate that 3,600 rapes a day are never attempted because the victim either showed a gun, said she had a gun, or the rapist thought the victim had a gun for some other reason.

Looks like to me that a rapist knowing or even suspecting a woman is armed, OC or otherwise, is a deterrent.

Can you come up with a few examples, stories, a survey, anything that indicates rapists target women because they know the women are armed and can fight back? Should be easy enough because knowing that a person has a gun makes them a target, right?

Guns Prevent 3,600 Rapes a Day | Frontpage Mag


-------------------------------------------------------

Wright Rossi Study.

You claim you're an NRA member... here ya go.

Fifty-six percent of the felons surveyed agreed that "A criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun;"

A 57% majority agreed that "Most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."

Significantly, almost 40% said there was at least one time when the criminal "decided not to do a crime because [he] knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun."

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20030909/the-armed-criminal-in-america

Please tell us about all the criminals who select victims because they know they are armed and can fight back.

So 44% were not dissuaded by the presense of a gun. And we're going to take the words of an interviewed FELON as gospel?

You think the junkie who needs a fix is gonna be afraid to rob you because you have a gun on?

How many cops are assaulted every day?

Google "gun store robbery". Or bank robbery. Or armored car robbery. Perps going up against openly armed victims. Does it stop SOME crimes from occurring? I'm sure it does. Thug mentality generally goes for the weak.

And just WHERE do they get the 3600 rapes are prevented from happening number? If the rape doesn't happen, who is going to report it?

And as CajunLawyer and others pointed out, at least in their geographical areas, MOST people walking around with a displayed weapons are looking for attention. Like the guy with the "OPN CRRY" plate. That guy actually paid extra money to drive around with that thing on.

If you live in an area that OC is very common, I get doing it. I might even do it myself if it was common. But it's not where I live. And it's legal. And yes, EVERY time I have seen a person OC'ing in my state, they are making a statement. They make sure to take a seat at the restaurant with their gun side facing out. Like the soccer Mom a few years ago. Removed her windbreaker at a 10 year old soccer game. Then she gets on TV, and blinks into the camera like some robot, and just keeps mumbling "the 2nd Amendment says I can do it".

Incidentally, she was murdered by her husband a few months later. Guess he wasn't dissuaded from his crime by her displayed weapon. They were separated and he shot her, and then himself. Her holstered gun never cleared lather (or plastic, whatever).

But just for giggles, here are a few:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...g-Cop-Trying-to-Steal-Gun-NYPD-273328741.html

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/us/alabama-birmingham-police-detective-pistol-whipped/index.html

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_yl...ng&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=chr-yo_gc&type=937811

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

So 44% were not dissuaded by the presense of a gun. And we're going to take the words of an interviewed FELON as gospel?

You think the junkie who needs a fix is gonna be afraid to rob you because you have a gun on?

How many cops are assaulted every day?

Google "gun store robbery". Or bank robbery. Or armored car robbery. Perps going up against openly armed victims. Does it stop SOME crimes from occurring? I'm sure it does. Thug mentality generally goes for the weak.

And just WHERE do they get the 3600 rapes are prevented from happening number? If the rape doesn't happen, who is going to report it?

And as CajunLawyer and others pointed out, at least in their geographical areas, MOST people walking around with a displayed weapons are looking for attention. Like the guy with the "OPN CRRY" plate. That guy actually paid extra money to drive around with that thing on.

If you live in an area that OC is very common, I get doing it. I might even do it myself if it was common. But it's not where I live. And it's legal. And yes, EVERY time I have seen a person OC'ing in my state, they are making a statement. They make sure to take a seat at the restaurant with their gun side facing out. Like the soccer Mom a few years ago. Removed her windbreaker at a 10 year old soccer game. Then she gets on TV, and blinks into the camera like some robot, and just keeps mumbling "the 2nd Amendment says I can do it".

Incidentally, she was murdered by her husband a few months later. Guess he wasn't dissuaded from his crime by her displayed weapon. They were separated and he shot her, and then himself. Her holstered gun never cleared lather (or plastic, whatever).

Fail.

Please tell us about women who are targeted by rapists because they know the women to be armed.

3,600 to zero. Try again?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

And yes, EVERY time I have seen a person OC'ing in my state, they are making a statement.

I do t hate OC'ers at all. Depending on the situation, it's perfectly reasonable. I do it myself sometimes.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

"Self-government won't work without self-discipline." Paul Harvey

That's the problem with open carry - jerkwads hoo jus' gotta dew it cuz day kan.

Sorry for the silly accent - it works in Arkansas as well as in Noo Yawk Sittee......jerkwads iz jerkwads.......

 

[4506517]

I am very disappointed at many sworn law enforcement officers when it comes to citizens rights to carry...........

"I'm a second amendment supporter, but........."

"It should only be for uniformed officers........."

"These people are idiots........"

Wow. Given the quality of MANY officers today, they are the ones that scare me when I see them armed.

And let me say I work easily one of the most violent, drug infested counties in the nation. 20+ shootings in the past week or so.

 

[kbm6893]

OK, can you cite a few?
Agree. There are advantages and disadvantages to either.
I'm none of those things. You can't reasonably compare any of those to a private citizen carrying openly- apples and oranges.
I know. I was there. Also, I never had time to make an expression, startled or otherwise. It took me a second or two after they passed before I realized what he was up to. And that was with me watching them and aware of my surroundings. The direction my face it pointing has little to do with the direction I'm looking.
That's good, you're far ahead of most parents/grandparents in providing for the security of the children in your care. However, you have a small gun in a caliber that is unlikely to stop a pit-bull or other powerful dog, which is probably your most likely threat there. Open or indifferent carry allows a larger (and easier to shoot) gun in a more optimum caliber. Open carry is far more likely to prevent that pervert in the trench coat from doing something traumatic to the children. Open carry is more likely to deter the carjacker from approaching after the kids are in the car. All subjective of course. Being armed is #1 and you have that covered- good on you.

Let's not start a caliber war now. 8 rounds of 9MM +P hollow point can and do stop pitbulls. I know since I killed one with a 9MM while still on the job. Dead right there.

 

[kbm6893]

Fail.

Please tell us about women who are targeted by rapists because they know the women to be armed.

3,600 to zero. Try again?

The presence of a displayed weapon will dissuade some guy who doesn't really care who his target is. He'll just wait for an easier target. But if the rapist is fixated on that particular woman, he's not gonna let the gun stop him. Crack her in the head as she walks by and she's done. Cops have been raped, both men and women.

Cops get assaulted every day. Openly carrying cops with pepper spray, tasers, and a radio. They get assaulted every day.

And where is this 3600 number coming from? Some lowlife felon who is sitting in prison? Why would we believe anything they say?

I'm not gonna sit here and say that the open carrying of a weapon has not stopped SOME crimes. But is the end worth the means? I worked in the ghettos of Brooklyn. I took the train in from the downtown Brooklyn station. That station was a major hub into Manhattan. One day, while walking to it from my precinct, I see 3 low life's following me. I turned, lifted my jacket, and told them to move on. They did. I didn't need to look like I was GI Joe.

Carrying a gun is a political statement to some. Not for me. Those who want to do it, if it's legal, go for it. Lots of things are legal that I don't agree with. I'll choose to ignore those fools and associate with like minded people. Just because they own a gun doesn't mean we have the same code of conduct.

 

[Smoke]

I don't try to speak for the OC fanatics with their AR's and vanity plates. I don't even know their language.

I've posted this to you before but it's still quite applicable

That really is what it comes down to for you isn’t it? Open carry just pisses you off. It’s purely emotional there’s no reasoning involved you can’t come up with a cogent argument against it you just don’t like it.


You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into to begin with

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I'm not gonna sit here and say that the open carrying of a weapon has not stopped SOME crimes. But is the end worth the means?

3,600 to zero.
Unless you can provide something that you haven't so far, it appears that the end more than justifies the means for the survey I offered.

The idea that armored cars with armed guards are robbed is silly to this discussion unless you're suggesting that if Loomis advertised that their cars would no longer have open carry armed guards that robberies would slow down. My guess is that these security companies know what they're doing.

 

[johngalt]

..
Cops get assaulted every day. Openly carrying cops with pepper spray, tasers, and a radio. They get assaulted every day.
...

I'm not gonna sit here and say that the open carrying of a weapon has not stopped SOME crimes. But is the end worth the means? I worked in the ghettos of Brooklyn. I took the train in from the downtown Brooklyn station. That station was a major hub into Manhattan. One day, while walking to it from my precinct, I see 3 low life's following me. I turned, lifted my jacket, and told them to move on. They did. I didn't need to look like I was GI Joe.

Police get paid to go into harms way. That's a different situation. That's like saying people shouldn't have matches because fire fighters have been burned.

It appears to me that your experience confirms Phil's study.

 

[cmort666]

Cops get assaulted every day.

Cops actively engage suspects at close quarters in order to APPREHEND THEM.

1. I don't want to be a cop.
2. I don't want people to think I'm a cop.
3. I don't want to do what cops do, ESPECIALLY "apprehend" people.

That being the case, what happens to cops while doing things I haven't the SLIGHTEST desire to do is UTTERLY irrelevant to me, whether I open carry, carry concealed, or don't carry AT ALL.

Again, your argument is functionally indistinguishable from that of any anti-gunner who says you shouldn't have a gun because it'll just be taken away and used against you.