are mp sport 2 rifles sub moa capable ?

[cyphertext]

IMO, the shooter who can use the iron sights is the better shooter. But, when starting a new shooter out, especially a young one, I will typically start them with a red dot. I want them to get hits and enjoy shooting. We can get the fundamentals down after they are hooked. Nothing frustrates a new shooter more than continually missing the target.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

My question was, why do they have to learn the irons first? What value is it

In general, I think those who say to learn irons first are often lamenting the fact that some new AR buyers (and who are new to rifles for that matter) start out with mounting all sorts of aiming devices, scopes, lasers, red dots.... before even having shot the rifle for the first time. So in that regard, I think there is some value in first learning the operation of the rifle they bought, including irons, before outfitting it with the latest China-made tactical kaleidoscope. Having some hands-on experience with the rifle is useful for the newbie to gain a bit of knowledge, skill and perspective leading to better choices, whatever they might.

 

[Magload]

I am with Rastoff on this one. Why learn something if you are never going to use it. Said the same thing when they wanted me to take Latin in high school. I don't plan on having to pick up someones AR and use it when mine goes down at the range. Btw I can shoot irons just don't like to or need to.

 

[blues7]

Well when I keep both eyes open I get two front sights and keep forgetting which is the right one I am supposed to be using.

Shoot in the middle. (It's kind of like the way it used to be when folks still drank and drove...only in this instance you have a weapon safely pointed down range with no one in harm's way. )

 

[blues7]

I am with Rastoff on this one. Why learn something if you are never going to use it. Said the same thing when they wanted me to take Latin in high school. I don't plan on having to pick up someones AR and use it when mine goes down at the range. Btw I can shoot irons just don't like to or need to.

I suppose it makes sense to know how to use them if your batteries go out...or worse yet, your batteries go out and you need your rifle in a self or home defense situation. (Not speaking about you, of course, but a hypothetical Joe who becomes too reliant on technology.)

Most of us hated when Uncle stopped letting us carry the firearms we owned and qualified with on the job (as long as they were above .380.) But, it made a lot of sense that they went to one handgun that everyone was trained on.

Before that, many didn't know how to operate their fellow agents' firearms whether handguns or long guns...safeties, releases, charging.

I agree with Phil that knowing the fundamentals is, well, fundamental. Anyone that doesn't care to learn is asking for trouble imho.

 

[snm8510]

Why learn something if you are never going to use it..

Goes for a lot of things, but I'm fully for knowing how to use irons if you have even the slightest intention of using your AR as a HD/SD option. It's good for "just in case".. It's just like the weapon, you know, you never hope you have to use it, but if you ever do, you need to know how to.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Goes for a lot of things, but I'm fully for knowing how to use irons if you have even the slightest intention of using your AR as a HD/SD option. It's good for "just in case".. It's just like the weapon, you know, you never hope you have to use it, but if you ever do, you need to know how to.

Well sure. The primary sighting system on my rifle is a 1x red dot. The flip irons are referred to as BUIS.

 

[R. G. Amos]

Most average AR pattern rifles will shoot about 2-3 MOA which is good enough for their intended purpose. A non-chrome lined barrel will generally shoot somewhat better as will a free floated barrel. Heavier barrels will generally not shoot any better than thinner barrels unless the shots are fired in fairly rapid sequence in which the barrel becomes heated. The barrel length as long as it is adequate to stabilize the bullet has no effect on accuracy but does of course effect trajectory.

The speciality AR rifles will shoot about 1 MOA if fed the proper ammunition. Most of these do not have chrome lined barrels and also have free floated barrels. Even these have trouble maintaining accuracy with M855 ammunition because of ill centered penetrators.

The key here is consistency. Just about any rifle will occasionally shoot small groups but will not consistently do so.

The exception are the highly tuned competition rifles which will indeed shoot less than 1 MOA. But these are not intended for general use.

 

[Rastoff]

Here's the thing about ARs and iron sights for me; many don't come with any sights at all. I just looked at the S&W website and they have 25 models of AR rifles. Eleven of them don't come with sights.

Of those that buy any kind of AR, most will put some kind of optic on them almost immediately.

Maddmax said that learning the irons first was beneficial before you put an optic on. I'm still curious to hear why he believes that is? Are we just regurgitating what we've heard on the internet or do we really know why we suggest these learning concepts?

 

[cyphertext]

Here's the thing about ARs and iron sights for me; many don't come with any sights at all. I just looked at the S&W website and they have 25 models of AR rifles. Eleven of them don't come with sights.

Of those that buy any kind of AR, most will put some kind of optic on them almost immediately.

Maddmax said that learning the irons first was beneficial before you put an optic on. I'm still curious to hear why he believes that is? Are we just regurgitating what we've heard on the internet or do we really know why we suggest these learning concepts?

Do you know how to drive a vehicle with a manual transmission? I may choose to drive an automatic as my daily driver, but if I had to use my old CJ-5 as a daily driver, I could... because I know how to use a manual transmission.

Same thing with a rifle. Optics make it easier, but if I know how to use irons, I can fall back to them if I ever needed to... more rounded skills makes for a better shooter.

 

[Magload]

My Daisy red Rider BB Gun had iron sights 60 some years a go a long with a Sheridan Blue Streak a few years later. I can shoot irons but all my rifles since then have scopes. I keep a few handguns with open sights most 1911 and like shooting them. When you young'en get old and have eye surgery in both eyes with the master eye getting a artificial lens in it and a cornea transplant you will see open sights can be tough to see.

 

[C J]

A person needs to learn irons first because it gives you a much better idea of how aiming works. Plus what happens if your scope gets knocked off zero or knocked off completely? And what happens if the only gun you can find in an emergency is one that only has iron sights? Yes those things can be learned at any time and doing it first doesn't matter. But it does matter that you're learning how to work a firearm in a way might save your life. Even if your scope happens to fall off and your gun doesn't even have irons if you know how irons work you can generally just aim down the barrel and get decent accuracy. Any shotgun shooter will tell you that you can do well with just a bead sight on the front of those guns. The truth is you don't even need that. You can tell where the bead should be if you're familiar with the system. It's like learning to crawl before you can walk. You never know when you might need to crawl.

I also firmly believe that someone that understands how irons work will be a better shooter in the long run. That person who learns with irons will have a better knowledge of how shooting and aiming works.

Again scopes can get knocked off zero fairly easily and sometimes they just loose zero because a screw backed out. Then what do you do? If you know about irons you can line up your shot from the top of your scope if needed. You won't be as accurate of course but you'll be a lot closer than someone who has never shot with irons.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I am with Rastoff on this one. Why learn something if you are never going to use it.

I hear what you're saying, but sometimes we don't know what we don't know. And once we learn something it becomes useful. You're a scope guy so I'm sure you can relate to this.

Most guys are clueless about ballistics, clueless about how to use the ranging reticle on the scope they bought, and equally lost about MOA, distance and scope adjustment. The only thing they know is to shoot, adjust, shoot, adjust... repeat repeat... until they finally hit something... and god forbid don't touch anything on the scope after that. But what if they got a taste of what they don't know?

I'm at the Club on the 300yd range and get to talking with a guy there. He casually mentions that he's curious the size of steel plate he's shooting at. I recognize his Bushnell scope and ask if it's a mil-dot reticle. He says yes. I tell him to put his scope on 10x and look through the scope putting the center of one of the dots on the bottom edge of the plate and see how it measures. He does. He says it goes from the center of one dot to about the center of the next dot. I tell him he now knows the size of the plate. A mil = 3.6in at 100yds. Since we're at 300yds then the size of the plate is 3.6in x 3 = around 11in. All of a sudden his eyes light up like a caveman discovering fire. OH...!!! Then I tell him that the mil-dot is typically used in reverse, to use the known size of an object to see how far you're away from it. OH...!!! I saw the guy maybe 6 months later and could not get him to shut up. Apparently, once he got a taste for the concept of using a mil-dot reticle for more than a crosshair with fancy dots around it and how a little math makes it work, he then went on to connect all the dots, so to speak, about distance, ballistics-bullet drop, MOA and scope adjustment... and how everything works together. Of course all of this required learning basic math in school.

Cypher speaks of a well rounded shooter. I agree with him. But most folks' eyes glaze over when speaking of the above. Are they well rounded shooters?

 

[blues7]

Cypher speaks of a well rounded shooter. I agree with him. But most folks' eyes glaze over when speaking of the above. Are they well rounded shooters?

I'm not so sure that terms such as "well rounded shooter" matter per se.

For example, the terms "liberal" or "conservative" have lost much of their meaning due to all of the attributions appended to them that have no basis in truth or fact.

I think what matters, imho, is whether or not a particular skill is worthwhile in the circumstances. If you can make an argument in its favor then it probably is or very well may be. I guess it all comes down to semantics.

Using myself as an example...I don't own a scope and the only one I ever used was the integral scope on a Steyr AUG when it was a duty weapon.

I live in a heavily forested environment and the area itself is surrounded by state and national forests.

I purchased my rifle for home defense and recreational shooting on my neighbor's property. To get a 100 yard line of sight without trees or other obstructions, (natural or man made), is a rarity unless you were on a rooftop, in a tree or lying on a straight section of road.

I might get a red dot optic at some point but for my intended purposes the MBUS sights are probably sufficient.

Am I a well rounded shooter? Probably not since I can't speak with any authority about MOA, zeoring at 200 yards, and don't know how to mount, calibrate or adjust a scope at this point in time.

But, on the other hand, do I have the necessary knowledge and skill set to use my rifle in the manner intended? I think I do (and I intend to enhance that skill as I become more acquainted with the firearm and platform).

The argument for learning to use iron sights isn't, in my opinion, about judging or determining whether a given shooter is well rounded or not. It's about possessing a necessary skill if his or her battery operated or other optic were somehow rendered inoperable when it might be called upon...especially in an unforeseen emergency.

Whether I am well rounded or not is less urgent in the circumstances in comparison to whether I am prepared.

Sorry for the long winded soliloquy. I just don't think we should get caught up in semantics. And despite my own view of this discussion, I think everyone brings up good and valid points.

 

[rodney winston]

i am generally pretty good with iron sights my first 15 years of shooting air rifle and 22s that is all i had...but i sold my old mini 14.. 180 series because there was no good way to put a scope on it and bought the ar to replace it so i could have a scoped rifle and maby yall are much better with irons than i am but on a crow or ground hawg at 150 - 250 yards you only get one shot and i feel way more confident with a scope.. maby thats just me..also i have never been a fan of peeps i like the v notch rear sights much better its what i grew up shooting

 

[Rastoff]

Any shotgun shooter will tell you that you can do well with just a bead sight on the front of those guns.

Don't make the mistake of equating a shotgun with a rifle. Sure, they're both guns, but the manual of operation is completely different. This is not about shotguns so I'll stop here.

I hear what you're saying, but sometimes we don't know what we don't know. And once we learn something it becomes useful.

Some will say that the phrase "we don't know what we don't know" is redundant or obvious, it's not. It speaks toward willful ignorance. We get a thing and rather than learn about it, we're generally too lazy to read the manual and just go off and strat using it, wrong. How many of you actually read the manual your car came with cover to cover? I do, but I'm a geek and not normal.

There is so much to shooting a rifle accurately it's amazing. It's a hobby unto itself. Most won't take the time to understand what MOA means or how the trajectory affects their shot. Most don't realize that there are two zero yardages. Most think that trigger control is keeping the trigger in the gun.

Each tool is different and has a specific purpose. The AR is a battle rifle, but the vast majority of them are purchased just to have fun at the range. So the whole concept of being able to pick up any gun to defend themselves is completely foreign to them.

Therefore, if a person wants to get a red dot because it's easier, fine. Sure I'd love to have everyone here become and expert in different guns and sighting systems; that's not going to happen.

I'm more interested in promoting the sport of shooting. If a person is more likely to get into it by having a red dot or magnified optic, I say go for it. Using a red dot first won't make a person a bad shooter. They can always learn irons at a later date.

You don't need to learn a stick shift first. It won't make a person a better driver. It's just another skill set that's valuable and opens them to a wider variety of possibilities.

In any group of enthusiasts we tend to eat our own. We see someone who's starting out, but not doing it the way we learned and we tell them it's wrong. I've seen guys light up new shooters over stuff that really doesn't matter.

So, if someone wants to throw a red dot on their rifle the day they buy it, I'm not going to stop them. If they want to change the barrel before they've ever shot it, I'll question that. When talking about guns, if the bullet/projectile/ejecta mass is hitting the intended target, nothing else matters.

Let's get them to the range first. Let's see that smile when they hit the target. Then we can work on decreasing the size of their groups or the value of being able to use any sighting system.

 

[cyphertext]

To me, a "well rounded shooter" is one who can shoot just about anything well enough to hit what he is aiming at. He has a basic understanding of how to use and adjust iron sights and optics. He can obtain a zero and shoot two, five shot groups with 20 rounds or less (military gives you 18). He understands the basics of trajectory and doesn't think that a bullet takes the flight path similar to a rainbow out of a level barrel.

He may not know advanced concepts, such as ranging with mil dot and dope, but should understand his scope well enough to grasp these concepts when explained. He should have a basic understanding of MOA and understand how it allows comparison of group sizes at different distances.

I guess a well rounded shooter in my mind has a good basis in the fundamentals. He has a good foundation on which to build the advanced concepts. He can shoot from field positions as well as a bench. He can use a hasty sling to stabilize the rifle. He can adjust zero.

And another reason to know how to use irons... you can use your irons to determine if an issue is with the scope, or the rifle itself....

 

[cyphertext]

Let's get them to the range first. Let's see that smile when they hit the target. Then we can work on decreasing the size of their groups or the value of being able to use any sighting system.

This is where Rastoff and I agree... Get them shooting and get them hitting the target. After safety, this is first and foremost for an instructor. I do this with Boy Scouts that have never shot before. Let them shoot with the scope. Let them shoot with the red dot. Once they are making hits and start getting cocky, which they always do , challenge them to do the same with the irons. Makes for a good teaching moment.

 

[C J]

Don't make the mistake of equating a shotgun with a rifle. Sure, they're both guns, but the manual of operation is completely different.

Oh really. Ever shoot a slug through a shotgun? They aren't all that different. I'm not saying you can shoot tiny groups aiming down a barrel with no sights at all but most likely an experienced shooter with irons or a shotgun shooter used to a bead sight will be able to hit a center mass target at 50 yards or so. I've been shooting for 52 years. I've shot both shotguns and rifles. Aiming is aiming. I made my point so I'll stop here.

And another reason to know how to use irons... you can use your irons to determine if an issue is with the scope, or the rifle itself....

Excellent point.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

To me, a "well rounded shooter" is one who can shoot just about anything well enough to hit what he is aiming at. He has a basic understanding of how to use and adjust iron sights and optics. He can obtain a zero and shoot two, five shot groups with 20 rounds or less (military gives you 18). He understands the basics of trajectory and doesn't think that a bullet takes the flight path similar to a rainbow out of a level barrel.

He may not know advanced concepts, such as ranging with mil dot and dope, but should understand his scope well enough to grasp these concepts when explained. He should have a basic understanding of MOA and understand how it allows comparison of group sizes at different distances.

I guess a well rounded shooter in my mind has a good basis in the fundamentals. He has a good foundation on which to build the advanced concepts. He can shoot from field positions as well as a bench. He can use a hasty sling to stabilize the rifle. He can adjust zero.

From my observations, that's less than 1%.