Fatal Shooting During CCW Class

[MichiganScott]

This was a CCW class, not a beginners class. Why did you think it was a beginner's class? Did you even read the article?

Since it's a concealed carry class, it's the perfect time to teach malfunction drills. Also, clearing malfunctions is not an advanced technique. Teaching to clear a malfunction while moving for cover would be an advanced technique.

From the second link Mainsail posted;

"According to the gun shop’s website, the class taught basic pistol safety, gave students range time and reviewed Ohio’s gun laws."

It's laudable that you teach malfunction drills, but if it is not required by law the vast majority of instructors will not do so in a basic class.

We have to remember that laws vary from state to state. In Michigan, the NRA basic pistol class is usually populated by beginners and people that have not previously fired a gun. It is a requirement for a CFL. Trying to teach a total newbie how to clear a malfunction is not something I would wish to do, particularly since newbies have a real problem keeping their finger off the trigger.

 

[Muss Muggins]

This was a CCW class, not a beginners class. Why did you think it was a beginner's class? Did you even read the article?

Since it's a concealed carry class, it's the perfect time to teach malfunction drills. Also, clearing malfunctions is not an advanced technique. Teaching to clear a malfunction while moving for cover would be an advanced technique.

No, the mistake here was not "what" they were teaching, but "how" they were teaching it. They should not have had live rounds in the class room. Out on the range, after proper instruction, live rounds might be used. Definitely not in the class room.

This is the prescribed CCW course in Missouri. Nothing about malfunction drills here, or much of anything else other than making it go bang down range and not blowing your toe off. Nobody I know considers a basic CCW course to be anything more than the equivalent of a driver's license exam. Actually, the driver's exam is harder in Missouri, but of course, driving is a privilege, not a right guaranteed in the Constitution . . .

2. A certificate of firearms safety training course completion may be issued to any applicant by any qualified firearms safety instructor. On the certificate of course completion the qualified firearms safety instructor shall affirm that the individual receiving instruction has taken and passed a firearms safety course of at least eight hours in length taught by the instructor that included:

(1) Handgun safety in the classroom, at home, on the firing range and while carrying the firearm;

(2) A physical demonstration performed by the applicant that demonstrated his or her ability to safely load and unload either a revolver or a semiautomatic pistol and demonstrated his or her marksmanship with either firearm;

(3) The basic principles of marksmanship;

(4) Care and cleaning of concealable firearms;

(5) Safe storage of firearms at home;

(6) The requirements of this state for obtaining a concealed carry permit from the sheriff of the individual's county of residence;

(7) The laws relating to firearms as prescribed in this chapter;

(8) The laws relating to the justifiable use of force as prescribed in chapter 563;

(9) A live firing exercise of sufficient duration for each applicant to fire either a revolver or a semiautomatic pistol, from a standing position or its equivalent, a minimum of twenty rounds from the handgun at a distance of seven yards from a B-27 silhouette target or an equivalent target;

(10) A live-fire test administered to the applicant while the instructor was present of twenty rounds from either a revolver or a semiautomatic pistol from a standing position or its equivalent at a distance from a B-27 silhouette target, or an equivalent target, of seven yards.

 

[walkin' trails]

I agree that safety precautions were likely not in placed or enforced. I saw a video a while back for a regional instructor advertising his training, and his finger was on the trigger when it should not have been.

I've been dabbling in getting back into competition over the last couple of years and have shot around a lot of non LE enthusiasts. I've been bested by a few on certain courses of fire, usually by those with more recent competition experience, but have also noted the gamers seem to have a much narrower focus. My state hasn't had concealed carry for really that long (and now Constitutional carry), and I suspect many who are now choosing to exercise their rights started within the last three years when nut case and terrorist-committed atrocities have sparked up a lot of nanny state activism and political rhetoric.

One thing I have noted is that there are a lot of shooters who are still nervous and unfamiliar in terms of handling their guns. There is a definite need for good instructors to coach them. I've never attended or taught a CCW class, but I can't imagine you can cover everything in 8 hours, especially when dealing with relatively inexperienced students. I can't find fault with immediate action drills finding their way into a CCW class, as I've seen quite a few, even LEOs who can't remember how to deal with a malfunction, and I think it's critical to cover the subject as much as possible (my agency's adopting a new handgun course that includes an immediate action drill coupled with faster times and no tolerance for alibis seems to serve as some positive reinforcement as I've seen better execution over the past few months. Couldn't seem to get the point across when they were just training drills). Consider a new permit holder who carries a Glock who still limp-wrists it on occasion.

I talked with a local instructor who is retired LE who operates his own range facility. He told me that there are a lot enthusiasts out there who, if they get around to forking over the money for a class, still have about a two hour attention span. There is a lot I can do with multiple two-hour sessions, but people have to be committed to more than just one.

I am not in favor of government-mandated training requirements, but do wish that more gun buyers would understand that they need to seek training as a responsibility to their 2A protections.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I read it.

Article said it was a CCW class. Typically that means getting a carry permit, and there's usually some newbies in such classes.

The handgun carry permit classes around here teach to the lowest common denominator, beginner level.

That bad, huh? That's how it is here in the People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts. It is a natural consequence of how permits work around here. I didn't think that it was that way elsewhere, but I guess I was wrong. That was probably also part of why I assumed they were beginners, since that would have been true around here.

The loss of a continuous tradition of gunhandling can have serious safety consequences, and this is just one example (if, in fact, it is). Although I "entered the gun culture" at the late age of twenty or so, I was respectful of my elders, so I didn't have much trouble learning quickly. But a LOT of folks, I think, are now getting guns without being properly grounded in our way of handling firearms, which I feel is the safest way to actually be armed. [Israelis are pretty safe gunhandlers, but from a state of unreadiness that most of us would not tolerate.] I worry for the future if we cannot keep our tradition solid.

 

[OldChief]

I read both accounts of the incident and can only ask one question. Why was live ammo allowed in a classroom?

 

[Muss Muggins]

I read both accounts of the incident and can only ask one question. Why was live ammo allowed in a classroom?

That, unfortunately, is the question that instructor and student alike will wake up in the middle of the night asking themselves for the rest of their lives . . .

 

[The Big D]

Why, indeed?

No way live ammo should EVER be in a classroom. Not sure why 'real' guns were there, either.

Sounds like an amateur operation with horrible consequences.

Be safe.

I read both accounts of the incident and can only ask one question. Why was live ammo allowed in a classroom?

 

[warprints]

Recently took a CCW course as required to renew my CCL. Two things I'll remember for a while took place. First, on the second day of class, the instructor told us to bring our firearms into the classroom. He checked every firearm as we walked in, one by one, AND PATTED DOWN EVERYONE to make sure no-one had any ammunition on them. Later that day, at the range, one lady, who really had no business carrying a gun, had a problem with her 22 auto. As she was handing the instructor the gun, she fired it. Luckily, the instructor had done pretty much everything correctly and no-one was shot. He approached her from behind, kept telling her to keep the gun pointed toward the target, put one hand on her back, and reached around the side of her to take the gun.

 

[Muss Muggins]

. . . Two things I'll remember for a while took place. First, on the second day of class, the instructor told us to bring our firearms into the classroom. He checked every firearm as we walked in, one by one, AND PATTED DOWN EVERYONE to make sure no-one had any ammunition on them. . . .

I've been to classes/classrooms that were secured with a handheld metal detector/wand at the doorway . . .

 

[ladder13]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The biggest enemy of the 2nd Amendment is not Pelosi, Reid, Obama or Bloomberg. It's folks in our own house that pull stunts like this..............

Disagree 100%

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I am wary just going to a public range these days. A lot of people don't know what they are doing.

I went to my closest local range over the weekend. It was so busy I would have had to wait a very long time and I wasn't interested in doing that. They know me there and one of the owners laughed as I left and said, "All the Rambo wannabees are here; it will be much slower during the week."

I MUCH prefer a nearly empty range. Too many things can happen when there is a crowd.

------------------------------------

As for the subject at hand, we never allow loaded weapons in the classroom. Period.

Even the advanced classes that I have been involved in, never mind the concealment classes, always do the weapon drills AT A RANGE, never in a classroom. Live ammunition indoors, not in a range environment, and with students, is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[flintsghost]

#1 instructor mistake is to allow ANY live ammunition in the classroom while training. Whether it's civilian CCW class, or LEO recruits, or anything else. Never allow ANY live ammunition in the setting until you have moved to the range. People shouldn't have it period...no in their pockets, bags, or anywhere else. Violation of that rule means expulsion from the class with no refund period. For LEO recruits violation means that"burger king is still hiring, see ya."

 

[Rastoff]

Yes, I read the article.

Sorry about that quip. It was very unprofessional of me and uncalled for. I didn't intend to demean you and apologize.

Certainly the person in charge, if there was one, was a beginner.

Yes, I completely agree. Live ammo in the classroom definitely denotes lack of experience or at least thought.

It's laudable that you teach malfunction drills, but if it is not required by law the vast majority of instructors will not do so in a basic class.

Just because the law requires teaching of basic gun safety doesn't mean it's a basic class. In fact, we have no idea what level these students were. They could have been beginners or experienced. I've seen plenty of students who thought themselves experienced who's demonstrated skills belied that claim.

That said, every class I teach is begun and ended with the 4 basic safety rules.

Trying to teach a total newbie how to clear a malfunction is not something I would wish to do,...

Nor would I. It all depends on what I see as a particular person demonstrates what they are capable of.

...particularly since newbies have a real problem keeping their finger off the trigger.

I wish it were only newbies, but from what I've seen, those who claim lots of experience with guns do it too. Putting the trigger finger on the trigger is the number one problem I see regardless of experience. The words, "Finger off the trigger" are repeated a lot at any class.



Yes, the laws are different in every state. I'm sure that you won't find a single state that has a law requiring the teaching of malfunction clearances. God I hope that never happens. However, that is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Malfunction clearance is not part of my CCW curriculum. But if a student, or even the entire class, wants to learn them, I will stay after the class and take them through it. At no time is live ammo ever allowed in the class room. Malfunction clearance can be taught, and practiced, without ammo or snap caps. Snap caps can make it a little more realistic, but live ammo never in the classroom.

 

[Kronos]

Lemme tell you a funny story about a carry class I heard when I went to get mine several years ago:

Woman was taking the guy's course and they were at the live fire part,she was using a .357 and at one point she went "click" instead of "bang"

So what'd this bright spark do? went and flipped the gun around and looked down the barrel! she got ejected in a hurry.

Why I took a private class,and why this accident don't surprise me some people go to a class and have never shot a BB gun let alone a real one so if you decide to let them handle live ammo at any place other then a range you're a fool.

I'm what you'd call fairly safe with a gun,granted I won't do anything stupid but I do accept you may have to break the rules in a real gunfight.

 

[SaberOne]

Back when I attended CCW in Arizona, students were not allowed to have any guns in the classroom. Many of the students were first time owners of a firearm. In the last phase of the class, students went to their cars or rented lockers and brought their firearms to the range (five at a time). They were not permitted to unholster until they were on the firing line, otherwise they were dismissed and forfeited the cost of the class.

 

[kbm6893]

On another board, there was a debate about manual safeties. Some guy posts that safeties will get you killed. He said he had taken 3 advanced pistol courses, and his instructor, a former Marine, told him safeties were dangerous. The poster was carrying a Beretta PX4 Storm compact, with the hammer back in SA and the safety off. He said it's no different than a Glock.

So many idiots out there with guns. Which is why I shoot alone. I trust almost nobody with a gun except me.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

That bad, huh? That's how it is here in the People's Democratic Republic of Massachusetts. It is a natural consequence of how permits work around here. I didn't think that it was that way elsewhere, but I guess I was wrong. That was probably also part of why I assumed they were beginners, since that would have been true around here.

It is what it is...

Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit class is designed to get the student a permit. Skim over a bit of law, safety, operation of a gun, pass a written test and toss enough lead on target to qualify. And do all this in a limited amount of time. That's it.

It's a very rare event that a student doesn't obtain a certificate of completion. The fact of the matter is that most all of it goes in one ear and out the other. A lot of students, perhaps most, will have little further range time if any at all. They just want a permit to legally carry a gun. It is what it is... I think most levelheaded instructors understand this and don't have an overinflated sense of purpose or expect carry permit students to be doing tactical drills.

Border states such as Georgia have no mandatory training to obtain a carry permit. Tennessee of course honors those permits. The good people of Georgia seem to be doing just fine absent mandatory training.

 

[ladder13]

It is what it is...

Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit class is designed to get the student a permit. Skim over a bit of law, safety, operation of a gun, pass a written test and toss enough lead on target to qualify. And do all this in a limited amount of time. That's it.

It's a very rare event that a student doesn't obtain a certificate of completion. The fact of the matter is that most all of it goes in one ear and out the other. A lot of students, perhaps most, will have little further range time if any at all. They just want a permit to legally carry a gun. It is what it is... I think most levelheaded instructors understand this and don't have an overinflated sense of purpose or expect carry permit students to be doing tactical drills.

Border states such as Georgia have no mandatory training to obtain a carry permit. Tennessee of course honors those permits. The good people of Georgia seem to be doing just fine absent mandatory training.

For years I've been reading in these type threads that people should have "mandatory" training before being "allowed" to own a firearm.
In this instance you have people who actually were training, or at least seeking the basics, and now, most if not all, gun owners are ninja warriors, idiots, and some sort of showoffs. Can't win for trying, can you?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

For years I've been reading in these type threads that people should have "mandatory" training before being "allowed" to own a firearm.
In this instance you have people who actually were training, or at least seeking the basics, and now, most if not all, gun owners are ninja warriors, idiots, and some sort of showoffs. Can't win for trying, can you?

True, there are few groups that I am aware of that have more contempt for each other than gun owners.

As far as "mandatory" training, I haven't seen any evidence that it manifests in generally safer gun carry, say Georgia vs Tennessee. I think people generally rise to their own level of responsibility in regard to guns absent government mandates and restrictions.

 

[Rastoff]

As far as "mandatory" training, I haven't seen any evidence that it manifests in generally safer gun carry, say Georgia vs Tennessee. I think people generally rise to their own level of responsibility in regard to guns absent government mandates and restrictions.

I think this is accurate.

Government issued permits are an example of trying to correct 1% of the problem by punishing the other 99%.

A right doesn't require a mandatory training class. Anyone in the US should be able to purchase and carry any gun they want without bowing to the government.